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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#161

Post by AnthonyMouse »

rhino369 wrote: post #127
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be downvoted for this. It's a reasonable question, it's just not what's happening. The traffic is reaching Verizon (or Comcast etc's) network at reasonable speed, and then congesting.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

> Verizon is saying, use a different bridge they are all open.

You're assuming Verizon isn't over-subscribing all of their other peering connections too.

> Both are valid arguments. However, one thing to consider is that Netflix could switch ISPS tomorrow and start dumping their load on a different bridge.

Your analogy is broken because peering connections aren't like bridges. Expanding a bridge costs millions of dollars and can't reasonably be moved from where you build it. 10Gbps switch ports do not cost millions of dollars and can trivially be moved to a different peer if loads change.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#162

Post by swasheck »

diminoten wrote: post #102
groby_b wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly word twisting. Following that logic, my bartender is pushing drinks on me, just by my request.

Bartenders will get fined and lose their license if they serve drunk people. Also, calling what I said "word twisting" isn't really addressing their argument, it's more or less just name-calling, which companies are really good at ignoring. To beat them, you've got to do better than that.

> Bartenders will get fined and lose their license if they serve drunk people.

only because they don't have a large lobby organization to protect them from the laws ;)

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#163

Post by ancap »

ubernostrum wrote: post #116
ancap wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone loves to drum their chest about capitalism but in this case it isn't working Your comment assumes that capitalism is in place in the US. It is not. Cronyism, better known as fascism, is.

Your comment assumes that capitalism does not have an inevitable degenerative end state of cronyism and other ills. The balance of history suggests strongly that it does.

It sounds like you don't know what capitalism is. Here's the definition Google spit out:

"an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

Seeing as cronyism necessarily requires state influence and capitalism requires the lack of state influence, your conclusion falls on its face.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#165

Post by cs702 »

rayiner wrote: post #128
cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked. See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i.…

Great comment -- it deserves an answer.

Imagine for a moment that we're talking about water service instead, and that we live in an alternate reality in which, due to accidents of history, the water network evolved much like our Internet, with peering and settlement agreements between privately owned water networks.

So, to borrow your words: you're paying your water service provider for a connection to their water network, but that doesn't make it their responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate water network on the way to every home what might need water -- even if water pressure drops every morning when everyone in town wants to take a shower.

Regardless of the technicalities, that doesn't seem right, does it?

Just as water service providers in that alternate reality would be responsible for making sure customers can pull enough water to shower every morning, ISPs are responsible for making sure their paying customers can pull the traffic for which they have paid.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#166

Post by sandstrom »

jpgvm wrote: post #98
maxsilver wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.

They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other dir…

This article is readable and explains the basics of 'transit' (I think peering is the correct term in this case).

http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-inte...

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#167

Post by dllthomas »

diminoten wrote: post #152
dllthomas wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their software proxying customer requests . It's not like Netflix devices up and decide to watch a movie. It's true that Netflix software is involved at every point, but it's still fundamentally the customer demanding the data. Note that users can opt to stream lower quality than their link supports: Adjusting the data usage settings for your account is the easiest way to reduce the amount of bandwidth used whil…

Now this is where I don't think consumers are as privy to the technology as they could be. I doubt most Netflix customers adjust their data usage settings with their ISPs in mind. Frankly, I'm not sure they should, but I doubt they're even thinking about that, either way. I'm not going to watch a 480p video because I'm trying to conserve my ISP's capacity. That's silly. Besides, I think Netflix has a vested interest…

Why should they be adjusting their settings "with their ISPs in mind"? They're paying Verizon for "up to X mbps", Netflix is paying Level 3 for something enormous.

When the amount the user is requesting exceeds X mbps, then certainly Verizon has zero responsibility to meet that. When it's an appreciable fraction, it's understandable that they don't always meet it - it's "best effort", after all. When it's a small fraction, "too much is being requested collectively by all the users over that link" seems like it should quite legitimately be Verizon's problem.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#168

Post by diminoten »

mullingitover wrote: post #159
diminoten wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

Following your logic, restaurants should be charging their wholesale suppliers for all the ingredients they're 'pushing' into the restaurant's kitchen. > I really hate to be that guy (and I know I'm breaking rules by saying this), but have we really devolved to the point where we downvote everything that isn't 100% in agreement with the hive mind? I think people are seeing this as a misinformed viewpoint and reacting…

I never made a value judgement - there is no "should" statement in my comment. Like I said in another comment, I've given up trying to express a view on this topic.

This isn't "my" logic, it's fact. It's a fact that customers aren't making informed requests, and it's a fact that Netflix is in control of the requests, from start to finish, and it's a fact that Netflix is increasing the request volume over time by offering more and more higher-quality video (they even offer 4k video streams for some of their content and have said they intend to do more of this over time).

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#169

Post by rayiner »

Alupis wrote: post #160
rayiner wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean to say that there is no such thing as what software folks think of as the "internet": the sort of idealized network that you think of when you're dealing with sockets instead of edge routers. Obviously "internet" exists as a marketing term, but it refers to what's described in the Cisco article, not to the idealization. Do you get upset when you sign up for a United flight and one of the legs is operated by a…

Abstraction or not, you are missing the bigger picture. 1) Level3 has offered to split the cost with the Big5 ISP's of upgrading their infrastructure.[1] * This would increase throughput and capacity for both Level3 and the consumer networks. 2) Netflix has offered free Open Connect Appliances to all major ISP's.[2] * This would allow consumer networks to only download a video once , then serve it up locally within t…

In a world where everyone watches Netflix, the traditional peering arrangements dramatically favor companies like Verizon. Unsurprisingly, they're fine with the existing peering arrangements. Companies like Level 3 are offering to "share the cost" of upgrading the networks, because under the traditional arrangements, they would have to bear the full cost of the upgrades. Everyone in this discussion is just looking out for their own bottom lines.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#170

Post by swasheck »

xyclos wrote: post #68

can we all reply to his tweet[1] about this letting him know we can all see through his bullshit [1] https://twitter.com/daedyo/status/487292992504360960

Nobody's getting responses from either him or Libby Jacobson. They just farted in the room and left.
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