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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#151

Post by [deleted] »

rhino369 wrote: post #127
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be downvoted for this. It's a reasonable question, it's just not what's happening. The traffic is reaching Verizon (or Comcast etc's) network at reasonable speed, and then congesting.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

[deleted]

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#152

Post by diminoten »

dllthomas wrote: post #148
diminoten wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that Netflix controls the requests, the whole time. So to say that "customers" are making these requests isn't actually true. Netflix is asking its own servers for the streaming video, which means they can control the volumes at which the data gets sent. Netflix could ask for less data, in the form of lower quality streams, but have intentionally decided to ask for, at all times, the highest possible vide…

It's their software proxying customer requests . It's not like Netflix devices up and decide to watch a movie. It's true that Netflix software is involved at every point, but it's still fundamentally the customer demanding the data. Note that users can opt to stream lower quality than their link supports: Adjusting the data usage settings for your account is the easiest way to reduce the amount of bandwidth used whil…

Now this is where I don't think consumers are as privy to the technology as they could be. I doubt most Netflix customers adjust their data usage settings with their ISPs in mind.

Frankly, I'm not sure they should, but I doubt they're even thinking about that, either way. I'm not going to watch a 480p video because I'm trying to conserve my ISP's capacity. That's silly.

Besides, I think Netflix has a vested interest in continuing to push this issue, and thus the "Auto" adjustment might favor as much data as possible, irrespective of the overall ISP's capacity.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#153

Post by ozymandius182 »

mutagen wrote: post #59

Netflix has an open offer to move CDN servers deep into provider networks [1] to avoid peering congestion. This would put most of the Netflix traffic at the bottom right of Verizon's infographic. Why hasn't Verizon accepted this offer? [1] https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

Not sure why this isn't ranked higher. The entire issue with Verizon is that it refused to do this. They can't complain about intermediate systems when they have been provided the chance to bypass many of them.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#154

Post by AnthonyMouse »

DanBC wrote: post #139
Alupis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all. It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network , to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

> Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all You might not like the logical conclusion: the ISPs charge people for what they actually use.

There is no logical inconsistency with the notion that wired ISPs offer flat-rate unlimited service and periodically upgrade their networks to be able to provide that service. The cost of the upgrades are completely sustainable notwithstanding Netflix. Verizon has no trouble allowing its customers to watch an unlimited amount of FiOS TV.

The cause of this dispute is that the ISPs each have a monopoly over access to a large distinct block of customers and want to leverage that into a tax on content distributors, creating an unlevel playing field in favor of the ISP's own over the top services in competition with services like Netflix.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#155

Post by pedrocr »

This proves the opposite of what they argue. Supposedly the argument is "Netflix users use too much bandwidth so Netflix should pay for our network upgrades". And yet what their chart and argumentation shows is that the Verizon network has all the capacity it needs to handle this user's traffic and yet at the border of the Verizon network, Verizon is not accepting more traffic from Netflix.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#156

Post by sliverstorm »

msandford wrote: post #54

From the article: "Netflix sends out an unprecedented amount of traffic." YES! Yes they do! But Netflix doesn't send that traffic for fun and giggles, just to swamp your network and clog up the port. They do it because YOUR CUSTOMERS HAVE ASKED THEM TO and you, Verizon, you duplicitous shitbag, have SOLD THAT CAPABILITY to your customers. They have LITERALLY PAID you to successfully receive up to 75Mbps worth of traf…

Peering is the part I wonder about. Netflix pays for the pipes to upload. Customers pay for the pipes to download. But who pays for the peering pipes in the middle? Should it be Netflix's ISP? Customer's ISP? Both? Neither?

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#157

Post by rayiner »

deeviant wrote: post #144
rayiner wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as the "internet." What appears to be the "internet" is just a mesh of interconnected but private networks all running the same protocol. The Cisco article I linked to above shows you what you're actually buying. What you're talking about is an illusion that only exists in software.

That's funny, why does verizon call their service "high speed internet service", when the is no thing as the internet. And if you go to the landing page for high speed internet access on the verizon homepage, it becomes immediately obvious that they are selling it as a internet service. Should we now start talking about there is no such thing as a video, just 1's and zero's, or, there is no such thing as 1's and 0's,…

I mean to say that there is no such thing as what software folks think of as the "internet": the sort of idealized network that you think of when you're dealing with sockets instead of edge routers. Obviously "internet" exists as a marketing term, but it refers to what's described in the Cisco article, not to the idealization.

Do you get upset when you sign up for a United flight and one of the legs is operated by a codeshare partner? It's the same thing: there's an idealized abstraction of a "flight from New York to Burkina Faso" and the actual reality that the underlying physical service is a distributed one.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#158

Post by [deleted] »

Alupis wrote: post #143
DanBC wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all You might not like the logical conclusion: the ISPs charge people for what they actually use.

Not necessarily. If Level3 is be believed (and they are credible imho), the Big5 ISP's here in the states are just flat-out refusing to make any network upgrades. Level3 has even offered to split the costs with them, since it benefits Level3 as well. What happened to all that "National Broadband Act" funding the Big5 ISP's got? What about annual infrastructure upgrades? These guys are not coping with the data-driven…

[deleted]

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#159

Post by mullingitover »

diminoten wrote: post #87
cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

Following your logic, restaurants should be charging their wholesale suppliers for all the ingredients they're 'pushing' into the restaurant's kitchen.

> I really hate to be that guy (and I know I'm breaking rules by saying this), but have we really devolved to the point where we downvote everything that isn't 100% in agreement with the hive mind?

I think people are seeing this as a misinformed viewpoint and reacting to that.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#160

Post by Alupis »

rayiner wrote: post #157
deeviant wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny, why does verizon call their service "high speed internet service", when the is no thing as the internet. And if you go to the landing page for high speed internet access on the verizon homepage, it becomes immediately obvious that they are selling it as a internet service. Should we now start talking about there is no such thing as a video, just 1's and zero's, or, there is no such thing as 1's and 0's,…

I mean to say that there is no such thing as what software folks think of as the "internet": the sort of idealized network that you think of when you're dealing with sockets instead of edge routers. Obviously "internet" exists as a marketing term, but it refers to what's described in the Cisco article, not to the idealization. Do you get upset when you sign up for a United flight and one of the legs is operated by a…

Abstraction or not, you are missing the bigger picture.

1) Level3 has offered to split the cost with the Big5 ISP's of upgrading their infrastructure.[1]

* This would increase throughput and capacity for both Level3 and the consumer networks.

2) Netflix has offered free Open Connect Appliances to all major ISP's.[2]

* This would allow consumer networks to only download a video once, then serve it up locally within their network to all their customers. In-network traffic is almost free for the ISP's.

3) Netflix has offered to change their entire distribution model into a P2P model.[3]

* This would allow consumer networks to only download a video once, then serve it up locally within their network to all customers. In-network traffic is almost free for ISP's.

.

All of these options have been flat-out refused. The Big5 ISP's are purely after the money. There is no other compromise for them.

[1] http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/chicken-game-play...

[2] https://www.netflix.com/openconnect/hardware

[3] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/netfli...

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