How about we let women attend these conferences for free? Like a form of affirmative action to help balance the sex ratio. Would that help?
While we're at it, can we have the same offering to African America men and Latino men?
Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
161–170 of 267 posts
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#162It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…
Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.
Because you're legitimately afraid that your assaulter could seriously injure you in a fight?
Because you just want to get out of there as fast as possible and escalating into violence is likely just going to draw it out?
Because you're afraid bystanders will take his side and you'll be seen as the aggressor?
Because there's a lot of cultural pressure for women to ignore sexual harassment and you don't want to "rock the boat" that badly?
Or how about because these are grown men and women in an at least semi-professional environment and the idea that they should have to resort to violence to solve their problems is completely fucking absurd?
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. The disapproval needs more mindshare, and thats why I think it was…
> Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. We know that people have reported their first hand accounts of receiving harassment at multiple cons and multiple times per con. These incidents are not isolated. There is a str…
I'd like to ask that you re-read my post. You're talking past me.
Given the subject matter I made a poor choice of words using "any one isolated" instead of "any individual", the later phrase is not associated with marginalizing harassment/assault and I should have used that instead.
However, even with the poor choice of words I'm not trying to imply that the number of incidents is low enough to be swept aside, in fact I say that in the very next sentence.
I never said harassment wasn't a problem, I was trying to address the parent post on the topic of peer disapproval. I was trying to articulate that perception of the level of peer disapproval is a very important factor in addition to peer disapproval proper. Only the perception of disapproval can "stop it before it starts", and these cards seem to be a good way to spread that perception.
Sharing incidents where someone is called out on the spot are necessary so that the peer disapproval can spread. Publicizing only the incidents where the harasser gets away with it, that serves to reinforce a perception that can very easily lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#164Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#165It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…
From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. Men don't have to do it, why should women. I think it'd be helpful to identify why this problem exists in the tech field. Is there a chicken and egg situation where more women in tech would solve these problems, but something about tech prevents more women getting in…
I'm curious if this is a unique problem for tech workers. I'm sure if you look at conferences from any field there will be incidents of sexual harassment. Is this a problem unique to tech or a general problem of idiot men working with women?
I've worked mostly in corporate environments. If I had to characterize a type that was in need of sensitivity training, it usually wasn't the tech guys, it was the "business" type (marketing, finance). Of course that's just my experience.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#166Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…
I have never seen one women who, after a smile and eye contact, was offended or disgusted by an invitation to a drink. No matter if she was interested or not - the only point after that is accepting a "no thank you".
It is not hard to be a man if you just act polite but still purposive just don't try to fondle her before you said "hi".
I know it is neither easy nor fun, especially if there are social phobias involved, but it is definitely not hard to be a guy trying to flirt with a women. Maybe uncomfortable, but rumors are, that women who try to flirt with a man have the exact same problems.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?" This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. I…
What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?
If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#168Lots of my peers who don't get this stuff don't get it because to them not physically assaulting the opposite sex comes naturally. They don't realise that others are very aggressive with it.
You just have to remember with advances that when in doubt, take a step back. You wouldn't grab someone you weren't attracted to from behind right? If your planned chat up didn't work, so what? You came for the tech not the women right?
And blokes, lets please keep out of "its so hard for men too". Sure, men get sexually assaulted, it's a real problem. In my city its nearly as likely for men as women, but here's the key. Do you feel safe at conferences? I do, but it seems lots of women don't.
Let's make everyone feel safe and valued at all our events.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#169I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.
One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.
I would use these things in a fucking heartbeat. I'd bet others would too.
One of the problems isn't lack of disapproval. It's being instantly prepared to confront the situation in a way that's helpful and effective. When I'm just going about my business, seeing something egregiously wrong often leaves me speechless for a bit. It'd be great to have these in my wallet to whip out and say, "Dude, yellow card!"
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because being sexually harassed in the same manner as women do, regularly would give you some understanding and sympathy, not a point of pride to brag about as you are here.
"not a point of pride to brag about as you are here" Bragging? Really? Pointing out obvious thing that you all knights on high moral horses forgot - woman is not always victim. And if she is perpetrator she more often than not goes free (woman drugs husband, cuts off his penis - not guilty.) And I am "bragging" here BECAUSE "would give you some understanding and sympathy". I know how women fake their harassment to ge…
I think you have no idea what harassment sexual or otherwise is like for a woman. Once you have experienced being physically different to a man, then come back, bit harassement that you received is in no way the same or even similar.