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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

schneier.com

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#111
post #89
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a woman acts inappropriately towards a man, he rarely has any option to make her fuck off. "Men don't have to do it"? They can't. It's only that it happens less often (I guess). Seems to me that women have a lot more power in this regard.

When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.

When 1 in N women get drafted and killed during a war, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered women.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#112
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Behavior like grabbing a strangers crotch from behind and disappearing before she has a chance to turn around "works"? No, it most certainly does not. There is a big difference between being confident and showing leadership, and groping strangers in public. And the "agressive, alpha male" (which is a term that I hate, by the way) persona doesn't work for everyone, either. I know plenty of women for whom that's a huge…

> At a hacker conference, people are generally more interested in talking about hacking and less about flirting; Even if I were trying to pick someone up at a conference, I'd talk about hacking, engage their interests, ask them what they are working on, etc. Intellectual flattery. Physically, I'd be cool. If, after some time, the woman initiated some innocuous physical contact (shoulder & arm touching, for example),…

"If, after some time, the woman initiated some innocuous physical contact (shoulder & arm touching, for example), I would not reciprocate in kind. No, I would reciprocate with more platonic interest. This might be slightly disappointing at first, but it would build trust. Physical reciprocity only later, like a long-delayed echo."

At which point she would think you aren't interested in her and then move on mentally and physically to someone else.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When adults are acting like 10-year-olds, maybe it's the perfect solution.

I think that's true only for a small minority...

It's only ever a small minority that needs the correction.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#114
post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?" This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. I…

Please go read the original post and pay special attention to the bit where con security gives out awards for people who run around demanding that women show their tits.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#115

Nerds (and I say this as one) have problems dismissing their anti-social members, because nerds have been dismissed from other social circles, and hated it. They don't want to be the bully. And so real asshole behavior is allowed to continue far longer than it ought to. The computer security industry has its own special problems. There is a very significant segment of the population that has "do whatever you can get…

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

"GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them."

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#116
post #72

Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help? If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple. After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of themselves if they want "equal" rights.

Warning: This is not the most productive comment I've ever made on Hacker News. That said –

This is one of the stupidest and wrong-headed comments I've ever seen in my life. I'd like to understand more about how someone arrives at such a polluted worldview.

Can you tell me a bit about your upbringing, friendships and romantic relationships? I'd like to understand why a few women being mean to you means that 50% of humanity should go fuck itself and tolerate intolerable behavior.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#117
post #81

From one of the comments: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... > Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the strippers DEF CON hires every year. Seriously?

They're not strippers, and they're not hired. They're volunteers, and it was their idea. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... and http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#118
post #81

From one of the comments: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... > Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the strippers DEF CON hires every year. Seriously?

If this is true (I have no idea, but trust Schneier), can you see why people are complaining about how endemic sexism is in tech?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#119
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh.. the last thing we need is to turn this into a general sexual attraction discussion about what (we think) works and what doesn't. It's a way more complex and controversial topic that we don't have to solve in order to address the "women in IT" problem when there is a much simpler solution: DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD. There is no shortage of…

"DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD." But that is in itself IS a generalization. I have family members and best friends who met their SO's at conferences or in professional environments. Or you can look at famous people who met their SO's working on the same project.

You can meet a person and develop a relationship with them without hitting on them.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#120
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say your comment hits home for me. It's my personal opinion/observation that > the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. I have myself seen the so called "bad boy" attitude succeed in a number of situations in real life. This just gives wrong signal to other men. The so called double standard has no easy solution. Or an easy way to recognize it eith…

"I have myself seen the so called "bad boy" attitude succeed in a number of situations in real life." Those "bad boys" are interesting in ways that you are not. Still, who cares if you get the girl? You're not entitled to date any/every woman. You do not get to because you want to.

Yea, i did say i have seen it work, but that does not mean i envy them. I just meant that people are usually expected to adhere to rules that are not clearly defined and change from person to person.
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