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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#31

Post by mindcrime »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment.

Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react.

That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior that is never appropriate towards someone that you don't already have an established relationship with. Asking a random female (or male, for that matter) to "come up to my room for a pillowfight" is just stupid in almost every conceivable context.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#32

Post by hythloday »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Do you also think it's weird that if my boss called me the "worst programmer ever" in a formal review I'd be unhappy but that I'm perfectly OK with hearing it from a colleague in the pub?

The vast, vast majority of the time people react differently to the same actions depending on the source of the actions. You do it, I do it, everyone you know does it. Why is it only a "double standard" when women do it?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#34

Post by Symmetry »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Many women are attracted to aggressive behavior, but that's hardly a universal. It's probably true that the most aggressive guy might get laid fastest, but if that comes at the cost of the respect of your peers why are you at a professional conference instead of a singles bar?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#35

Post by wmf »

unreal37 wrote: post #11

Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?

There's been an ongoing semi-related discussion about whether conference parties should be treated as parties or as "work" events. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3841975

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#37

Post by larrys »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

"I'm just saying that men act like that because it works."

Interesting thought. I'm wondering if there has every been a study or even one of those TV shows to prove out that point.

It would seem to be fairly easy to setup with some "honeypots" and a group of males to see what happens with each behavior. Or simply a group of women with male actors playing the role of aggressive males.

Of course it all depends on the parties involved. But I know they've done similar non-scientific things even with hair color and found blond woman asking questions in central park in NYC get more attention than brunettes.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#38

Post by sp332 »

brianjyee wrote: post #17
sp332 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometime it comes very close to being that when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. That's because it's a personal, relationship kind of thing. Your behavior depends partly on the other person. There is no single set of rules that will cover all people, all circumstances, all the time. (For "polite company" or formal gatherings there are of course protoc…

Absolutely. So you'd agree that what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another. And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.

It's an interaction, not a one-way thing. The only thing that I think makes a difference is consideration for the other person. Acting with no regard for them is jerky behavior. On the other hand just being willing to back off or even apologize if you've crossed the line can be an improvement.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#39

Post by jackpirate »

powrtoch wrote: post #12

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#40

Post by blhack »

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves.

How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?

Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them.

That, at least to some of my girl friends, is utter bullshit, and is blatantly sexist against women.

--

And to be completely honest, the red/yellow card thing has already become a flirtatious joke among people.

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