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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#71

Post by asmithmd1 »

blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#72

Post by lifbar »

Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help? If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple. After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of themselves if they want "equal" rights.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#73

Post by colmvp »

Symmetry wrote: post #49
mindcrime wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…

The line is going to vary depending on the personality of the person you're trying to flirt with and how attractive they find you. That's just the way it is. This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that they are or are not interested. And if you're paying attention you ought to notice if you make them uncomfortable, and apologize.

"And if you're paying attention you ought to notice if you make them uncomfortable, and apologize."

I don't think you need to apologize. Their uncomfortable demeanor could be brought on by lack of attraction rather than offensive behavior (assault/harassment), in which case their negative reaction will be a clear sign to get out.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#74

Post by mindcrime »

Shoomz wrote: post #43
mindcrime wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…

Really..."damned if you do, damned if you don't"? There are easy ways to approach women without worrying if you've crossed the line on your initial remarks. While you might have to be a mind-reader, at times, to know if they like you, you certainly don't have to be psychic to know if your remarks are offensive or rude.

Agreed. I was generalizing out of haste, since I didn't (and don't) have time to write a manifesto. :-)

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#75

Post by cbs »

jackpirate wrote: post #39
powrtoch wrote: post #12

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.

Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving.

Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared.

The disapproval needs more mindshare, and thats why I think it was a smart move that defcon staff embraced the red/yellow cards. Nobody is really going to walk around telling everyone about the time they saw a guy tell another guy to knock it off. The cards on the other hand, they had plenty of people talking.

On the whole though, we tend to look out for our own. Stories like this: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=4096... and this: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3043545&cid=4096... tend to be much of my 1st hand experience, the worst I know of first hand are people that don't known any better than to stare at someones tits.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#76

Post by pradocchia »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

This is merely an issue of reciprocity. Reciprocal interest takes time to develop. Don't get ahead of yourself, and don't use the alpha male as your personal frame of reference--they are outliers.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#77

Post by blhack »

asmithmd1 wrote: post #71
blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.

This is exactly the consensus that all but one of my hacker friends, including the women, have come to.

No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face, and most of the people here, since we're, you know, a community are going to physically remove you from the area.

Edit: if this wasn't clear, the "I" in this story is would be my female friends.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#78

Post by anewguy »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

SNL had a good training video to help you. Google "Tom Brady sexual harassment"

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#79

Post by boredguy8 »

RivieraKid wrote: post #69
powrtoch wrote: post #12

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

Honestly, I find the cards incredibly weird. I can imagine a class of 10-year-olds using them, but adults?

When adults are acting like 10-year-olds, maybe it's the perfect solution.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#80

Post by jleader »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Never take advice from someone who thinks it's meaningful to talk in terms of "what women want", as if there's this undifferentiated mass with a unanimous set of values.

If you haven't noticed that different women want different things, and are attracted to different kinds of guys, that might explain why you have trouble telling the difference between flirtatious give-and-take, and one-sided harassment. Or for that matter, the difference between assertive but respectful self-confidence, and blind aggression.

"when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment"

How about if we correct that to: "when the girl responds positively to the guy, and he keeps going, it's flirting, but when she responds negatively (or tries to avoid him) and he keeps going anyway, it's creepy/sexual harassment".

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