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India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

nytimes.com

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Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#161

Post by Robotbeat »

adventured wrote: post #143
Robotbeat wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. Most likely, India will continue to grow. Most countries not in the resource curse (and even many with it) have continued to grow.

> Most countries not in the resource curse (and even many with it) have continued to grow. Britain has seen zero net economic growth since 2006 (that's before any inflation adjustment). That's true of most of developed Europe. France's GDP is not much higher than it was in 2007, without an inflation adjustment (in real terms they've seen at least 20% contraction, plausibly worse given the currency debasement that has…

Most of those are already developed countries and about half the rest are “resource curse” (Russia, Nigeria,etc) it had significant war (Egypt, Ukraine, etc). The reason why India is likely to grow a lot is they’re still doing catch-up growth, they’re not primary resource export driven, and they’re industrializing.

Additionally, it seems to me that something important happened to the global economy right after 2007, so that’s a somewhat cherry-picked date.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#162

Post by AmericanChopper »

melling wrote: post #148
dmix wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is people voluntarily pay for football tickets and TV/online subscriptions. Same with music. They are self sustaining industries. Experimental space flight is coming directly from tax payers and public funding. I still think it’s a worthy use of public funds because we get so much out of it that is intangible while supporting both scientific research and some of the most advanced R&D work on the planet…

“They are self sustaining industries.” So, you don’t know about all the subsidies for stadiums, etc? https://money.cnn.com/2015/01/30/news/companies/nfl-taxpayer...

People complain about stadium subsidies all the time. I’d presume the amount of people who complain about them would be somewhat proportional to the amount of people who know they exist.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#163

Post by tanakachen »

tanakachen wrote: post #89
sidcool wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is always one comment like this. But fine. It always is worth. These things inspire the nation. Instill pride. They work wonders. And India's space program is much less expensive than many other nations. India sent a rocket to Mars that was cheaper than the budget for the movie Interstellar.

There is always “one comment like this” because most people here are not poor. If poor people were in this community, then you’d see many more comments like this. You think it’s worth it. I’m not saying it’s not worth it. I’m simply saying, if you ask poor people, many of them won’t think it’s worth it. And most people in India are very poor.

Lesson: HN does not like to think about the perspective of anyone who does not happen to have access to HN

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#164

Post by glasshead969 »

What’s the point of posting about Indian space program here if it’s going to devolve in to arguments how India is poor. What is new that is being said here that hasn’t been said before. So depressing.

Just to add numbers ISRO’s budget is 0.5% of Indian GDP, given that more money is probably wasted because of corruption and stupid policies I think this is not the worse way to spend money.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#165

Post by omnimus »

melling wrote: post #148
dmix wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is people voluntarily pay for football tickets and TV/online subscriptions. Same with music. They are self sustaining industries. Experimental space flight is coming directly from tax payers and public funding. I still think it’s a worthy use of public funds because we get so much out of it that is intangible while supporting both scientific research and some of the most advanced R&D work on the planet…

“They are self sustaining industries.” So, you don’t know about all the subsidies for stadiums, etc? https://money.cnn.com/2015/01/30/news/companies/nfl-taxpayer...

I am very much against the subsidies for sports but (being from football country) there are many secondary effects why countries support it. From better population health to higher patriotism (international matches are only time people see the flag and anthem) and even crime rate. Its good for kids to have heroes/role models and sport heroes are usually the ones kids prefer.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#166

Post by shripadk »

henvic wrote: post #113
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

You must see whether the money used in something is from the te sector or if it was stolen from the people through taxation. If it is the former, it's none of your business and indeed it doesn't make anyone poorer. If it is the later, it's of everyone's business, unfair, and bad. I'm not into Indian space endeavours but probably the money comes from poor taxpayers who would be way better off if they weren't plundered…

> I'm not into Indian space endeavours but probably the money comes from poor taxpayers who would be way better off if they weren't plundered in the first place.

If you don't know then it's best not to talk because it only helps perpetuate the already negative stereotype that most have. The poor aren't even taxed in India. Indians are only taxed after they have a minimum salary of 7.5 lakhs per annum (accounting for all the deductions). Which is around 11,000 USD. And no this amount isn't low by Indian standards (the per-capita income is 7,060 USD). The cost of living in India is extremely low and inflation is well controlled (And almost 70% of the rural households practice Agriculture in India. All these people are exempted from paying both Income Tax and GST. And if they have a bad season sometimes their loans are also waived.

India is a 3 trillion $ economy. India needs to find new ways to get to a 10 trillion $ economy if it wants to improve standards of living for all Indians and lift the remaining 300 million people out of poverty (it has already lifted 271 million people out of poverty in 10 years [1]. Can you name a single country that has achieved this feat in such a short span of time?). One of the areas where India can earn big is Space. ISRO is already a profitable enterprise for the Government. There is no reason why anyone will want it to be shutdown for anything. Especially when it is making huge profits.

[1]: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-lifted-271-mill...

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#167

Post by mruts »

shripadk wrote: post #157
mruts wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re saying it’s Indians that are doing the majority (>%50) of cutting edge research? That’s just not true, even in the slightest.

http://www.forbesindia.com/article/innovation-special/18-ind... EDIT: Since Hacker News won't allow me to post a reply. I am editing this post here. You misunderstood what he said. He said that "majority of Indians" are doing cutting-edge research in foreign Universities. Not "majority of cutting-edge research" are being done by Indians. Both have different meanings. Most Indians who travel to foreign countries get h…

Did you read what I said? An article from "Forbes India" about how there's 18 Indians doing cutting edge research is not related to what I said.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#168

Post by shripadk »

tanakachen wrote: post #85
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

I respect your perspective, but based on your answer I’m assuming you are not living in poverty?

The poor aren't paying taxes in India. They are exempted from paying any tax. Taxation in India only begins if you are in the lower middle class. And even then, you only start by paying 5% Income Tax. If you take in deductions you can also be tax free for upto 7.5 lakhs (almost 10,000 USD). India's Per Capita Income is 7000 USD (4.8 lakhs).

On the other hand, India has already lifted 271 million people out of poverty in 10 years [1]. Can you name a single country that has achieved this feat in such a short span of time?

[1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-lifted-271-mill...

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#169

Post by coldtea »

thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #129

When US was spending billions on Minuteman and Apollo missions, there were many problems in America, including poverty. Not sure? ask the African Americans in the south from that time. However, very little energy was spent on questioning whether spending in space was right thing to do. If developing countries spend a miniscule of their budget ( ISRO budget less than 2%), there is cynicism. I think what India is doing…

>When US was spending billions on Minuteman and Apollo missions, there were many problems in America, including poverty. Not sure? ask the African Americans in the south from that time. However, very little energy was spent on questioning whether spending in space was right thing to do.

Well, more energy should have been spent in that line of questioning.

But there was nationalism at play, and the race to compete with the USSR.

So, not really the best counter-example...

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#170

Post by coldtea »

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

>Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money.

Technology doesn't work like that, either. A country can "acquire deep technical know-how on engineering" by doing earth-bound R&D and working on its infrastructure problems...

Not to mention that they're not learning much new -- they just repeat what other countries have done since decades, most of which their engineers already know (they already send satellites and make military rockets and such).

Let's not pretend space vs local infrastructure is not an opportunity cost.

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