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India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

nytimes.com

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Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#121

Post by easytiger »

sanxiyn wrote: post #100
easytiger wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? India has Nuclear weapons and self made 12k km range ICBMs already

India didn't acquire launch technology "via globalisation". In fact, when India attempted technology transfer from Russia, US objected citing Missile Technology Control Regime, and India had to develop their own.

Yea. They basically went back to first principles on relativity I hear. They had nothing to go on. No well understood science in the public domain at all.

And the objection was around the seeker technology more specifically

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#122

Post by dmix »

scotchmi_st wrote: post #109
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

The thing that irritates me more than anything about the argument that sending people to space is a bad idea is the unique bias people have against space technologies. No-one ever says "We spend billions on Football; let's spend it on poor people instead", or "We spend billions on the music and film industries, let's shut those down and instead tax everyone for the average entertainment spend and send the proceeds to…

The difference is people voluntarily pay for football tickets and TV/online subscriptions. Same with music. They are self sustaining industries.

Experimental space flight is coming directly from tax payers and public funding. I still think it’s a worthy use of public funds because we get so much out of it that is intangible while supporting both scientific research and some of the most advanced R&D work on the planet (which is fed back into the economy in many ways).

But I still think it’s healthy for people to question it when their local day-to-day problems seem so much bigger than the universes, which is abstract and studied by academics and advanced private industry who aren’t their working class neighbours. Which is a big reason why we have elected officials to make balanced policy.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#123

Post by lewisjoe »

easytiger wrote: post #107
lewisjoe wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Agriculture is the country’s major occupation, yet it imports rice polishing machines from switzerland. Indian market is one of the fastest growing smartphone market. Yet the biggest players are Chinese, Korean or American. Railways has been the primary source of connection across the country and within cities. Yet metro trains are made by Japan and european companies. In the cities IT services are the main so…

The UK used to know build how to most those things, indeed invented them; they now buy them from abroad. Globalisation and the economics thereof dictate that. India to some degree skipped a step on the way. Much like central and rural African countries skipping broadband and going straight to mobile internet.

Yes. UK’s biggest company is not a train engine company. UK learned that it could generate far more revenue by selling financial services with its rich legacy along that line, than export train engines that it invented.

India took a similar path in 90s, selling IT services. But it isn’t simply enough given the size and the population of the country. The only sustainable way forward is to become strong exporters of good products along with services.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#124

Post by Robotbeat »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #92
Robotbeat wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not certain, but it is the most likely possibility. India doesn’t have an oil-dominated economy, so they aren’t in danger of the “resource curse.” Continued catch-up growth seems the most likely possibility. And as others have said, even a “middle income” outcome would make India an incredibly powerful nation due to the size of their population alone. EDIT: and there’s empirical support for my supposition that not be…

> Continued catch-up growth seems the most likely possibility Statistically speaking, this is unlikely. Not having concentrated natural resources helps. But the base odds around development economics are precarious. The most likely outcome is populist collapse, mass emigration and developmental reversal. Only vigilance can guard against that. If India’s populace starts believing growth or stable stagnation are the mo…

This is incorrect. Most likely, India will continue to grow. Most countries not in the resource curse (and even many with it) have continued to grow.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#125

Post by [deleted] »

sanxiyn wrote: post #100
easytiger wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? India has Nuclear weapons and self made 12k km range ICBMs already

India didn't acquire launch technology "via globalisation". In fact, when India attempted technology transfer from Russia, US objected citing Missile Technology Control Regime, and India had to develop their own.

[deleted]

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#126

Post by jayd16 »

scotchmi_st wrote: post #109
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

The thing that irritates me more than anything about the argument that sending people to space is a bad idea is the unique bias people have against space technologies. No-one ever says "We spend billions on Football; let's spend it on poor people instead", or "We spend billions on the music and film industries, let's shut those down and instead tax everyone for the average entertainment spend and send the proceeds to…

Well the obvious difference is public vs private spending. People do complain about public funding for stadiums.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#128

Post by astazangasta »

dahart wrote: post #108
astazangasta wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space enthusiasts are always trying to sell their fetish with this line, but the fact is that technology development is not some generic facility; if you develop technology devoted to getting things up into orbit, it will basically give you the expertise to do that. It doesn't, say, develop your semiconductor design, biochemistry, medicine, agriculture, or whatever else your country might need. It basically helps you…

I wish this comment was less baited. If your argument is true and strong, then you don’t need to dismiss it as fan behavior or call it a fetish. Your argument is also demonstrably weak. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

Yeah, where would we be without LASIK? I'll also note that that article notably elides things like ICBMs and the other myriad military applications, since it is clearly intended as a puff piece to make us view space technologies as benevolent and positive.

As for my tone, perhaps you are right that I don't need to employ ridicule; but I wish to, because I feel contempt for this position so strongly I want to make it known. Space fetishism is a diversion that exists to bilk engineers into careers and positions that are in aid of the military.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#129

Post by thetruthseeker1 »

When US was spending billions on Minuteman and Apollo missions, there were many problems in America, including poverty. Not sure? ask the African Americans in the south from that time. However, very little energy was spent on questioning whether spending in space was right thing to do.

If developing countries spend a miniscule of their budget ( ISRO budget less than 2%), there is cynicism. I think what India is doing is great and is great for improving India's technical abilities and India doesn't need to answer what it chooses to do with its money.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#130

Post by wornohaulus »

kmallen wrote: post #103
bufferoverflow wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither are you.

I think the poster's point was that NONE of us here are poor, hence this is a very different discussion than if we involved that poor part of the population. Not only is the poor fraction of the population huge, they would also have a very different take on whether the space program is worth it.

The poor are not paying taxes. Their opinions don't mean jack shit.
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