India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped • Hacker News Board

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#111

Post by sanxiyn » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

scotchmi_st wrote: post #109

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

The thing that irritates me more than anything about the argument that sending people to space is a bad idea is the unique bias people have against space technologies. No-one ever says "We spend billions on Football; let's spend it on poor people instead", or "We spend billions on the music and film industries, let's shut those down and instead tax everyone for the average entertainment spend and send the proceeds to…

I do think human spaceflight is a bad idea for now, but Chandrayaan-2 is a robotic mission.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#112

Post by screye » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:32 PM UTC

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

Also, India produces a staggering amount of geniuses who leave the country due to lack of good roles or technical challenges.

Having ISRO or Brahmos around, allows the country to keep some of its smartest in the country, before they are poached by the west.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#113

Post by henvic » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

You must see whether the money used in something is from the te sector or if it was stolen from the people through taxation. If it is the former, it's none of your business and indeed it doesn't make anyone poorer. If it is the later, it's of everyone's business, unfair, and bad. I'm not into Indian space endeavours but probably the money comes from poor taxpayers who would be way better off if they weren't plundered in the first place.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#114

Post by technofiend » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #76

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

Space enthusiasts are always trying to sell their fetish with this line, but the fact is that technology development is not some generic facility; if you develop technology devoted to getting things up into orbit, it will basically give you the expertise to do that. It doesn't, say, develop your semiconductor design, biochemistry, medicine, agriculture, or whatever else your country might need. It basically helps you…

if you develop technology devoted to getting things up into orbit, it will basically give you the expertise to do that.

The key word being devoted of course. If you fail to acknowledge any benefits from the space program other than getting things into orbit, then yes it'll be hard to see any value in space exploration beyond doing it for its own sake, which you may or may not see any value in since you yourself label it a fetish.

However the larger benefits of technology yielded by the space program are undeniable, including in some of the same fields you mentioned. From wikipedia

>NASA reports that 444,000 lives have been saved, 14,000 jobs have been created, 5 billion dollars in revenue has been generated, and there has been 6.2 billion dollars in cost reduction due to spin-off programs from NASA research in collaboration with various companies. Of the many beneficial NASA spinoff technologies there has been advancements in the fields of health and medicine, transportation, public safety, consumer goods, energy and environment, information technology, and industrial productivity. Multiple products and innovations used in the daily life are results of space generated research. Solar panels, water-purification systems, dietary formulas and supplements, space suit materials in clothing, and global search and rescue systems are but a few examples of the beneficiary spinoffs that have been produced.

You may hand wave and say "oh but that could have been all discovered without going to space." Perhaps, but your thesis seems to be space exploration is a fetish with no benefits beyond making space exploration more efficient, which is patently untrue.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#115

Post by adventured » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

scotchmi_st wrote: post #109

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

The thing that irritates me more than anything about the argument that sending people to space is a bad idea is the unique bias people have against space technologies. No-one ever says "We spend billions on Football; let's spend it on poor people instead", or "We spend billions on the music and film industries, let's shut those down and instead tax everyone for the average entertainment spend and send the proceeds to…

> No-one ever says "We spend billions on Football; let's spend it on poor people instead"

That one is said constantly (at least in the US). It comes up as a matter of routine as it pertains to the extremely high salaries that professional athletes get paid and with regard to the construction of new stadiums (which often cost a billion dollars or more now, are frequently taxpayer subsidized, and are often replacing functional 30 year old stadiums).

The top 500 NBA, NFL and MLB players earn more in salary than the CEOs of the S&P 500. The MLB payroll is $4 billion for ~750 players. Just the top 30 players in the NBA are earning one billion dollars per year combined. NBA teams are spending near $4 billion per year on salaries for ~450 players, or around $8 to $9 million per player. The 32 NFL teams are spending nearly $6 billion per year.

Between the NBA, NFL and MLB, there is around $13 to $14 billion in salaries.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#116

Post by easytiger » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #90

easytiger wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? India has Nuclear weapons and self made 12k km range ICBMs already

"Walls up" "Self made" Exactly.

The rumor is Russian leaked India some of the tech. Most of it was well k own anyway

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#117

Post by BurningFrog » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

Germany did not do big government engineering projects. They had a certain distaste for that after the war...

Instead they deregulated and let private enterprise rebuild their economy.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#118

Post by airocker » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #86

airocker wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar argument can be made about homelessness in San Francisco and other cities. Poverty elimination and tech progress can go hand in hand. In fact, it can help: https://homelessness.paulallen.com/

Not really the same thing, the per capita GDP of the US is vastly higher than India. A lot of that homeless could be solved with more equal wealth distribution. 30:1 between US and India according to google (not accounting for PPP).

The argument I was answering to was "I have seen catastrophic living conditions" thus "India should not". Of course, India needs a different approach and India has different problems. But in perspective, Indian defense imports are 100B USD and this mission costs 1.4B USD. India does not buy any missiles anymore. French Rafales cost India 5-10 B USD. This is the price India pays to be able to stand up to China in Doklam.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#119

Post by sanxiyn » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #95

Chathamization wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the excuses for spending billions of dollars hosting the Olympics. "All the infrastructure improvements will help the locals!" Well, yes, but if infrastructure is your goal there are a lot less costly ways to go about it. I'm sure a country that decided to build an underwater amusement park would end up acquiring some technical know-how on engineering, but that doesn't make that a practical goal.

A lot of Olympic infrastructure is wasted since it involves stuff like building stadiums that are then unused after the Olympics. Investment for an Olympics-type event can be useful if it results in the creation of durable multipurpose infrastructure like transit lines though. The US Space Race helped us become a leader in satellite launch, which is a productive industry on its own terms now. Weather satellites, GPS,…

US Space Race was toward the useless side, given that GPS or comsat do not require human spaceflight. Soviet Union was more sensible.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#120

Post by mindfulplay » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #61

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

Except the country already acquired all that via globalisation. This isn't 1952. There are few walls up on many technologies. India has acquired most of its know-how by undercutting developed nations and getting them to teach them how to do the work.

A lot of developed nations are piggybacking on the educated, talented people from India. It's only fair India got its fair share back.

More importantly, corruption and backstabbing has so far ruined such talent, spilling into developed nations; so if there is a somewhat level playing field being established through ISRO and via Indian startups for Indians, then that's a great start.