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India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

nytimes.com

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Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#91

Post by ip26 »

astazangasta wrote: post #76
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

Space enthusiasts are always trying to sell their fetish with this line, but the fact is that technology development is not some generic facility; if you develop technology devoted to getting things up into orbit, it will basically give you the expertise to do that. It doesn't, say, develop your semiconductor design, biochemistry, medicine, agriculture, or whatever else your country might need. It basically helps you…

FWIW, the very first application & customer for semiconductors was guided missiles. Literally what got the industry started.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#92

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Robotbeat wrote: post #60
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if they get stuck at middle income for awhile That isn’t the downside scenario. Countries that fail to ascend amidst population growth have a habit of collapsing and regressing, economically and politically. India has been doing a terrific job of traversing this terrain, a fact I largely ascribe to its democratic institutions. But continued progress is far from a given. Ironically, one of the greatest risk fac…

Not certain, but it is the most likely possibility. India doesn’t have an oil-dominated economy, so they aren’t in danger of the “resource curse.” Continued catch-up growth seems the most likely possibility. And as others have said, even a “middle income” outcome would make India an incredibly powerful nation due to the size of their population alone. EDIT: and there’s empirical support for my supposition that not be…

> Continued catch-up growth seems the most likely possibility

Statistically speaking, this is unlikely. Not having concentrated natural resources helps. But the base odds around development economics are precarious.

The most likely outcome is populist collapse, mass emigration and developmental reversal. Only vigilance can guard against that. If India’s populace starts believing growth or stable stagnation are the most likely outcomes, that itself almost assured a negative outcome. (The latter claim based on weaker statistics than the former around the base odds of development.)

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#93

Post by bufferoverflow »

tanakachen wrote: post #85
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

I respect your perspective, but based on your answer I’m assuming you are not living in poverty?

Neither are you.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#94

Post by blinkingled »

tanakachen wrote: post #80
tanakachen wrote: post #5

I’ve been to India, and seeing the catastrophic living condition of the majority of its citizens makes me question if going to the moon is the right priority.

Note to the downvoters: They automatically assume I said it’s not worth it. But actually I simply said we should question it, meaning consider it from all sides. Is analyzing things before during and after making decisions no longer an acceptable thing to do in 2019?

So how much do you think the Indians are spending on the space mission, how much of it should be taken away and applied towards poverty elimination and how exactly do you see that working? Hand over the money, build toilets, food rationing, power availability - all of that they are doing in parallel to their space program and those aren't things that just magically disappear by throwing more money at them.

This is false dichotomy - one doesn't have to cease for other to exist and ceasing one doesn't automatically make the other better.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#95

Post by javagram »

Chathamization wrote: post #83
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

This reminds me of the excuses for spending billions of dollars hosting the Olympics. "All the infrastructure improvements will help the locals!" Well, yes, but if infrastructure is your goal there are a lot less costly ways to go about it. I'm sure a country that decided to build an underwater amusement park would end up acquiring some technical know-how on engineering, but that doesn't make that a practical goal.

A lot of Olympic infrastructure is wasted since it involves stuff like building stadiums that are then unused after the Olympics.

Investment for an Olympics-type event can be useful if it results in the creation of durable multipurpose infrastructure like transit lines though.

The US Space Race helped us become a leader in satellite launch, which is a productive industry on its own terms now. Weather satellites, GPS, telecoms all benefit from it and provide tangible benefits to the population.

I’m not sure if Indian investment in space is more toward the useless or useful side of the spectrum though.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#97

Post by astazangasta »

ip26 wrote: post #91
astazangasta wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space enthusiasts are always trying to sell their fetish with this line, but the fact is that technology development is not some generic facility; if you develop technology devoted to getting things up into orbit, it will basically give you the expertise to do that. It doesn't, say, develop your semiconductor design, biochemistry, medicine, agriculture, or whatever else your country might need. It basically helps you…

FWIW, the very first application & customer for semiconductors was guided missiles. Literally what got the industry started.

Most industries get their start in the military because that is where the money always is; however, semiconductors have definitely moved on to other applications, whereas rocketry remains mostly about making missiles.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#98

Post by taarushv »

rounce wrote: post #84
skavi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sooner the better. We need a democratic counterpoint to China's totalitarianism.

India may have some kind of democracy but it's far that enjoyed in a western European nation. The open support by some BJP politicians for the lynch mobs and killers of Muslims and Dalits is unconscionable.

40% of BJP members of parliment have criminal records/charges against them. Including murder and rape. I'm Indian but I've lost faith in Indian politicians years ago. Only way I see a reform coming about is if more of the youth view politics as a viable/worthy career path. Right now, the lunatic amount of emphasis on Engineering/Science paths to highschool kids is draining all talent.

Source: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/elections/lok-sabh...

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#99

Post by denzil_correa »

easytiger wrote: post #61
lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

Except the country already acquired all that via globalisation. This isn't 1952. There are few walls up on many technologies. India has acquired most of its know-how by undercutting developed nations and getting them to teach them how to do the work.

USA has developed most of its business income/value by exploiting purchasing power capita of nations like India and China. It works both ways.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#100

Post by sanxiyn »

easytiger wrote: post #78
sanxiyn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some knowledge only can be learned by doing. Also, space technology is, due to its close tie to missile technology, one of those few modern technologies with walls up.

What are you talking about? India has Nuclear weapons and self made 12k km range ICBMs already

India didn't acquire launch technology "via globalisation". In fact, when India attempted technology transfer from Russia, US objected citing Missile Technology Control Regime, and India had to develop their own.
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