The biggest issue I see with Oracle's lawsuit is not with Android itself, but the future of Java as an open platform. The claims are pretty serious, and Oracle is going straight for the jugular. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out, but I've got to hope that Google will come out of this in good shape for the sake of Java. It's unfortunate that Oracle is interpreting Google's implementation of Dalvik and a Ja…
> Interpreting functions utilizing a hybrid of virtual and native machine instructions Are they serious? Unless I'm missing something this is a fantastic joke, JITs far predate Java.
Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
161–170 of 345 posts
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, here's claim 1: In a computer system, a method for increasing the execution speed of virtual machine instructions, the method comprising: - inputting virtual machine instructions for a function; - compiling a portion of the function into at least one native machine instruction so that the function includes both virtual and native machine instruction; and - overwriting a selected virtual machine instruction of t…
It sounds like the sort of stuff that Smalltalk implementations were doing before Java existed. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation#Histor... for more. (I wonder whether Sun's patents were filed for Self?)
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#163I bet the mono people are laughing their asses off now... I think Sun suing Microsoft was a mistake too for the Java platform... the write once, run everywhere ideology made Java the native platform of the server... write once, run everywhere should be the default, but it should be easier and encouraged to escape...
Microsoft were destroying Java with their own implementation, which was not compatible with normal Java. They were changing the language, just as they tried to do with HTML in internet explorer and active-x, so we still see people having to use ie6. Sun had to sue Microsoft, before they changed Java so much it was no longer platform agnostic (or it was way less agnostic).
I wonder if the MS rift caused more harm to Java than letting Microsoft change its implementation.
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
By better language, do you mean better than Java? The JVM supports many other great languages like Ruby, Clojure and Scala. I'd love to see Google provide GWT support for Scala, but that's another issue :)
The JVM bytecode is shitty. It cannot support dynamic languages at the VM level (yet: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=292 ), the support for the C# equivalent of structs has been pushed back, and that makes any kind of hardware acceleration painful. Then theres type erasure - a total hack to get generics. I think Oracle is being beyond stupid here. If anyone has the power to come up with a language and toolchain to m…
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#165Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't necessarily agree about relevance, but I do find it quite mind boggling that Oracle would strike out against what is clearly a massive growth opportunity for Java. If they want to destroy the Java brand the fastest way possible then definitely the right thing to do is start suing people who are using Java. The million dollar question is why would anybody in their right mind do this?
" The million dollar question is why would anybody in their right mind do this?" A slice of Android sales revenue... Perhaps as high as US$1 per handset would be nice.
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#167Google's an engineering company and I think they should fight back as such. Get together a team of your best and brightest, take Postgres, and turn it into a drop-in replacement for Oracle. And be very public about your efforts.
Because Oracle doesn't own any patents on the implementation of relational databases that they couldn't also sue Google over . . . The most engineer-ish thing to do is a back of the envelope calculation: 1. Estimate how much it'd cost to fight the suit. 2. Estimate the probability of winning. 3. Estimate the damages if you lose. 4. Estimate Oracle's ask for licensing the patents. If (1 + 2 * 3) < 4, fight, else settl…
I mean, obviously, this doesn't mean 'always fight' but it's another value you need to punch in to your equation, one weighing in on the 'fight' side.
In my business, a similar example would be the money I spend on running an aggressive abuse desk. Running a less-aggressive abuse desk would be cheaper, both in the work it takes and in customers I've lost, at least in the short term.
But in the long term, /because/ I have succeeded in making my service a hostile place for spammers, my abuse complaint rate is much lower than it would be otherwise. for a while, another VPS company rented a few servers from me... and in spite of being something like 1/60th of my size, they produced more abuse desk work than the rest of my customers combined. I believe, because I have an aggressive abuse desk.
(I mean, there are other costs... I've lost at least one legitimate customer I know of, because he was compromised and his box was spewing ssh attacks over the network. I shut him down with an email notice, the email went to the shut down box, so he never got it. )
my point is that there are real business reasons to fight that sometimes go beyond the immediate results of that fight.
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, but they are in the phone business; every phone that includes Java pays license fees to Oracle... except Android phones aren't paying.
This may be true but it would be amazingly bone headed of them. Android is the best thing to happen to Java in the last 5 years, and the perception (at least) that people using Java have less to worry about as far as patents go is one of the few things really giving it a strong advantage over .NET. This is a remarkably effective way of destroying several of Java's strengths all in one go....
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks, it naively hadn't occurred to me that Android would be using a non-Sun JVM, and given what you've said it seems that would be a viable route for an IP lawsuit (though it still seems in pretty bad faith).
Dalvik would be better if Google had just licensed Oracle's Sun JVM or used the open source version. As an occasional Android developer I am constantly banging against the limitations and performance of Dalvik. It doesn't do memory management nearly as well as the JVM, and it handles dynamic dispatch and one-off closure hacks (local classes) slowly. It won't easily accept generated bytecodes. It has mysterious perfor…
Also Sun removed the classpath exception when they put JavaME under the GPL. That means if you used the GPL'ed version of Java on a mobile device then it becomes viral - including to any application code. (That's why most GPL'ed Java programs use the classpath exception).
From Sun's point of view, this was a good idea because it allowed them to protect JavaME licence revenue. Google saw JavaME as outdated, though, so instead of licencing it they took the Apache licensed Harmony project (ie, a clean room, Apache licensed version of the Java class libraries) and build Android around it.
Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because Oracle doesn't own any patents on the implementation of relational databases that they couldn't also sue Google over . . . The most engineer-ish thing to do is a back of the envelope calculation: 1. Estimate how much it'd cost to fight the suit. 2. Estimate the probability of winning. 3. Estimate the damages if you lose. 4. Estimate Oracle's ask for licensing the patents. If (1 + 2 * 3) < 4, fight, else settl…
ah, but reputation matters here... you don't want to have a reputation for being easy money for patent trolls. Additionally, as google doesn't seem to be a patent troll, it's probably also in their interest to set legal precedents that weaken software patents. I mean, obviously, this doesn't mean 'always fight' but it's another value you need to punch in to your equation, one weighing in on the 'fight' side. In my bu…