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At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

theguardian.com

151–160 of 166 posts

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#151
post #132
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Evidence from slaves is rarely viable in a court of law. As slaves are regarded as inferior in Islamic law, death at the hands of a free man does not require that the latter be killed in retaliation.[81] The killer must pay the slave's master compensation equivalent to the slave's value, as opposed to blood-money. At the same time, slaves themselves possess a lessened responsibility for their actions, and receive ha…

Spoken like a true Islamic Extremist. Find the teachings that support your argument and then use them to brand everyone who disagrees with you as not being a true believer. It's a peculiar mind that can ignore the fundamental values of morality and kindness, and go straight for the edge cases that justify your warped sense of righteousness.

> It's a peculiar mind that can ignore the fundamental values of morality and kindness, and go straight for the edge cases that justify your warped sense of righteousness.

Truly sorry, you see I've studied too much history to believe anything remotely like "fundamental values of morality and kindness" exists. There are no values independent from ideology. Besides, you should get out more. Find a way to talk to one of those niqab'ed women, ask them what their values on the equality between men and women and then tell me how fundamental those values are.

There is no such thing as an inbuilt human morality. You wouldn't believe what some societies did, or even what they considered kind. You know how they say a "Spartan" upbringing these days ? Here's what it used to mean : Spartans are famous for considering the following a kindness : when a (male) kid turns 7, lock up his mother, and leave the kid with a small spear in the woods, where wolves are sure to find him. If he came back without a dead wolf, do it again until the kid is dead, or a wolf is. They considered this a kindness, both to the kid and to his mother, and also to the state. Tell me, how does this fit with your fundamental values of morality and kindness ?

Or read a few Greek plays. Pay attention to who fucks who, and how many people end up poisoned/stabbed/otherwise dead as a result. I don't care how free you think sexuality should be, I guarantee you will not find that behaviour moral or acceptable. Yet the Greek heroes are as bad as the losers, and they are certainly depicted as extremely moral. That they (sometimes) raped their own mother, sisters or daughters does not affect the story's judgement on their morals at all. And let's just stay away from the morality of the Greek gods, because while they are depicted as the definition of moral, you will massively disagree with their petty, cruel and mass-killing squabbles. Moral, in ancient Greece, it seems to me, is whatever behaviour gives you military victory.

If fundamental values don't exist, your argument falls apart, since it means you can only judge behaviour from the perspective of a religion or (maybe) ideology. That means that you yourself judge from an ideology (and frankly, you judge from the perspective of Christian values), and that your definition of an extremist is also relative.

For example, one who doesn't believe in fundamental values, might take offence at you judging a person based on "fundamental" (ie. your own) values. Which is of course exactly what you accuse extremists of.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#152
post #142
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said: > I have been able to find a few references to "black gold" meaning slaves I am not claiming that no one has ever used the term to mean slaves. What I am disputing is (1) your claim that in the 19th and 20th centuries the term was popular with this main meaning, and (2) your claim that it had anything to do with Islam. On #1, I find that the term was extremely rare until it started being used to describe o…

Black gold used to mean the slave trade towards America and within the British Empire and the Dutch. What does that have to do with Islam : simple. Who did they buy the slaves from ? The Ottoman empire. Most kidnapped slaves never did end up in the western slave trade by the way, but were instead kidnapped into north africa and the middle east (which was the effective center of the muslim empire, they even relocated…

What is your source of information?

I am not an expert on the slave trade, but my understanding is that most of the slaves in the western slave trade were bought in West Africa, which was never part of the Ottoman Empire.

(I'm not saying that the Ottoman Empire was never involved in the slave trade. It was. So was the British Empire.)

> they even relocated mecca into africa

????

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#153
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should not paint all countries in the Middle East with the same brush.

I've only been to a few countries in the Middle East, so I can't generalise. But one thing common among these countries is the lack of warmth, sincerity and humility among the locals. It is one of the most unpleasant and hostile cultures that I have encountered in my years of travel. They treat blue-collar foreigners as lesser humans. EDIT: To clarify, I've only been to Qatar, UAE and Bahrain.

Oman was actually pretty decent, from my experience between 2004-2010. They also mostly have young Omanis doing things like working at gas stations, rather than importing labor. They have recently started building more of a downstream gas economy, but have a demographic bulge in youth like Egypt does. It's also the prettiest natural environment of any of the GCC countries.

Bahrain and Kuwait mainly have issues due to large minority groups being repressed. Saudi is huge, and relatively diverse, with lots of political strife under the surface. UAE and Qatar are the expected super-rich with mostly imported slave labor. Jordan, Syria, Egypt don't have meaningful oil so no one cares. Iraq and Iran are largely having issues due to sectarianism, war, and isolation; Iran seems like it was the best country in the region before the Shah and revolution.

There are friendly/warm locals in all of these countries, but there's a clear social hierarchy, and only white Americans and Western Europeans, or other Gulf Arabs, will be treated as humans (some exception for Japanese in Kuwait), generally, and even then, the culture isn't as accessible to complete strangers as a lot of other cultures.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#154
post #26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that employ slavery, or effective slavery : Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is pa…

I'm more inclined to believe that the reason is socio-economic rather than religious. Many of those countries you listed are also a source of cheap goods for the West. Edit: just to clarify, what I'm saying is that the majority of adherents to any religion aren't fundamentalists. They choose which parts of their holy scriptures to follow, and ignore the rest -- the vast majority aren't even aware of all of them. Huma…

I don't dispute that there are economic reasons behind it. I'm not saying that enslaving people is done without reason in islamic countries.

The problem is those same economic reasons exist in the west. Yet slavery is not practised here. Why not ? Simple : the population would never allow it (not even in dictatorships). Yet the population in the middle east does allow it (or at least, they won't fight to abolish it). What is the difference ?

Note that the origin of difference goes back all the way to the later days of the Roman Empire. What changed was not that the middle east started to accept slavery as normal, what changed was that the west stopped accepting it. Why ? Well, simple : because of the rise of Christianity. Once slavery was gone, it re-appeared in the west twice (not counting slavery in, for example, Al-Andalus). Both times it was eradicated from within, and outlawed (after a while). Both times slavery reappeared because of trade contacts with muslim countries. In the middle east/asia/africa the reverse happened. Slavery was normal, the vast majority of the time, but every 300 years or so the slaves would successfully revolt, which generally lead to a decade-long abolishment of slavery (sometimes a once-off freeing of every slaves, sometimes 50 years of no slaves), but it would always return.

What is the difference ? I'm not claiming islam changes populations to accept slavery. Rather, I'm claiming Christianity changes populations to stop accepting slavery. And of course, I'm claiming that were Christianity/"post"-christian values lose sway, for example to islam, slavery returns.

This does not just apply to slavery, but equality in general as well.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#155
Seems a dead horse at this point, but this was common-place in Saudi Arabia where I grew up. Migrant workers from Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, the Phillipines (from memory) and elsewhere were notoriously mistreated.

My mother worked at a TV & Radio broadcast station for a (...the) major oil company there (side job, father was in oil @ same company), and found out the janitorial staff in her building were going both unpaid and unfed during their workdays for months at a time. I remember helping her with food-drives to pull food from expat communities for them.

It was well known to expat kids running around on-compound that 'gardeners' (generally bangladeshi and nepalese) were absolutely second-class citizens. These people were absolutely degraded at the hands of Saudi nationals and expats of a variety of ethnicities and nationalities (yes, westerners too). I've seen them yelled & cursed at, spit on, and beaten by company Security officers (generally al-Dossari Saudi's, but not always). The horror stories are literally countless.

There seems to have been a lot of discussion in this thread as to the effect that religion has played as a cause of this treatment of migrant workers. I DO NOT know (nor believe) that Islam has a direct role to play, but I can say confidently that this is a reflection of culture. There is a general acceptance of inherent difference in levels of humanity that is tied to national (and tribal) identities in many Middle Eastern countries. I would wager that the majority of the population (at the time I was living there, demographics change fast, and there are a boatload of young people in KSA) would tell you that a Sri Lanken / Bangladeshi / Pakistani != a Brit / American / Frenchmen, etc., and not feel that bad about it.

As I observed it, some of these people believed this as coldly as it is stated above, while a great many see it as a fact the whole world thinks this, but their culture/mindset is 'realistic' (shudders) or honest enough to admit it.

I DO NOT believe this is simply a 'rich taking advantage of poor' scenario. In my experience, these people are mistreated far worse than necessary for profit, or probably quite often to the detriment of it. I think it has more to do with cultural definitions of identity than anything else.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#156
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) many muslims disagree that there is a difference between islam and sharia. The word itself disagrees with your assessment. Besides, ever met a muslim that didn't care what halal was ? Ever wondered what "halal" refers to. These people that call themselves muslim use the sources I referred to as guidance on what is halal, they do not decide for themselves. 2) slavery, incuding kidnapping people, even children into…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry You are a bigot.

I disagree. I think his comments are well-researched, insightful, and logically driven. That his conclusion does not jibe with your particular worldview does not make him a bigot.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#157
post #69
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very curious about where s/he's pulling all that from too. First time I ever hear that killing slaves is OK in Islam! Or that freeing slaves is only allowed after they served in a military campaign.

"Evidence from slaves is rarely viable in a court of law. As slaves are regarded as inferior in Islamic law, death at the hands of a free man does not require that the latter be killed in retaliation.[81] The killer must pay the slave's master compensation equivalent to the slave's value, as opposed to blood-money. At the same time, slaves themselves possess a lessened responsibility for their actions, and receive ha…

You are citing an Orientalist, not a real Islamic source.

I don't know if you can read Arabic: ذهب أبو حنيفة وشيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية، وهو رواية عن أحمد، إلى أن الحر يقتل بالعبد؛ لعموم قوله عليه الصلاة والسلام: «المؤمنون تتكافأ دماؤهم، ويسعى بذمتهم أدناهم» وهذا القول هو الصواب.

And from another source:

: القول الراجح أنه يقتل به؛ لقوله تعالى: وَكَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيهَا أَنَّ النَّفْسَ بِالنَّفْسِ وَالْعَيْنَ بِالْعَيْنِ [المائدة:45]، وقول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: (لا يحل دم امرئ مسلم إلا بإحدى ثلاثة: النفس بالنفس) وقول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: (المؤمنون تتكافأ دماؤهم ويسعى بذمتهم أدناهم) وقول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: (لا فضل لعربي على عجمي إلا بالتقوى) وقول الله تعالى: إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ [الحجرات:13] فهذه العمومات تدل على أن الحر يقتل بالعبد كما أن العبد يقتل بالحر، وليس هناك نصوص صحيحة تدل على أن الحر لا يقتل بالعبد.

Both of which mention that a free man can be killed for a slave.

Furthermore, I don't know why you are raising the issue of slavery. It is not related to the thread topic. The workers in the Gulf countries are not slaves in the actual sense of the word - it has very particular connotations.

That being said, I agree that the way those countries treat the laborers is inhumane, disgusting, and anti-Islamic, and should be abolished.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. Like all organised religions, what's written in its holy books is of far less practical importance than what is preached by its leaders. Adherents don't read and figure out for themselves, they follow what they are told the books say. Like most religious leaders, the Islamic holy men tend to preach what is convenient to them. The fact that the religion is Islam isn't of…

> Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. That's a very secular western view of religion. The distinction between law and religion is one seems important to people familiar with Christianity, because that religion has historically existed alongside a state with a separate system of laws (either English common law or some derivative of Roman civil law). It's a distinction that makes a lot less sense in Islam, w…

I wouldn't say that Christianity has "historically" been particularly well factored from a separate system of laws, unless you mean to start history with the Enlightenment. The seat of power in Constantinople for centuries was a shifting alliance of Emperors and Patriarchs, and the law that was enforced was not really separated into secular and church law, but more like negotiated spheres of influence of each leader's representatives. The same goes for most of Western Europe's history, which involves a very long shadow cast by the Pope, and an extensive role for the Catholic Church in comprehensively ordering society and the operation of courts—in many places and eras there was essentially no distinction between canon law and civil law. This is because, exactly as you say, religion has traditionally been considered an integral foundation for the state in Christian countries.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#159
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are different flavours of crhistianity as well as different flavours of islam. While christian Americans did indeed support slavery, the eastern (Orthodox) christianity was never involved in such behaviour. I'm pretty sure that not all islamic countries were openly supporting slavery, it's just the desert ones. That being said, I agree that it's more middle east phenomenon that islam phenomenon. The other…

Not to nitpick, but the byzantine empire, seat of orthodox christianity for its first 1000 years, condoned slavery: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674036116

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Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#160
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't talk about their religion because their religion doesn't encourage slavery, obviously.

No religion doesn't have something that Western society doesn't have moral difficulty with. Christianity has a load of crap about stoning people, homophobia and subjugation of women for a start. Also includes God sanctioned rape and murder of non-Christians. Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy is full of that crap.

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