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At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

theguardian.com

21–30 of 166 posts

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#21
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured servitude.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim).

Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punishments for violations), secondly, to work to exterminate slavery around them (e.g. purchasing slaves then freeing them).

Little known fact, that second law is what lead to the introduction of hindu numerals in the west (Venetian merchants would purchase slaves, then free them after one voyage, in Venice. On of these joined a monastery, and taught the other monks (many things, mostly historical data, actually), on of whom wrote the Codex Vigilianus, which lead to the pope starting to use the numbers, which lead to ...)

Islam encourages freeing slaves, but only in one circumstance : after they have completed a successful military campaign, to celebrate (and it's perfectly OK, to re-capture the freed slaves and force them to fight again later. In fact the prophet did this). Note that islam is also unique in that it actually says that it's OK for owners to just kill slaves (whereas in other law systems there has to be a reason. Like, say you can kill slaves for running away. Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun).

So I'm wondering what the attitude is on this. If you seriously defend this point, you're effectively against every religion except Western-brand atheism (ie. not the -much more successful- socialist version of atheism), and Christianity.

Let me just leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill "A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. " (Mohammedanism is the historical name for Islam)

And do not take this as dissing islam, in fact pretty much every religion has slavery (in the sense of zero-compensation forced labour). "The west" is unique in opposing slavery and is still the only driving force behind the extermination of slavery, half-heartedly sort-of kind-of joined by India (the difference is that the west actually imposes trade sanctions against slavery-using states for using slavery whereas India refuses to do that. Within India, they're doing a good job fighting slavery though).

As the article illustrates, the western fight against slavery has actually lost terrain in the last 2 decades. Mostly because islam-based law systems are pushing for re-introduction of slavery (in Saharan Africa, Sudan, Mali, the worst can be found. But it also happens in the Middle East and Asia). Today the situation is that Islam is regressing, and slavery is one of the consequences of that.

Frankly I hope that a few states experience a few slave revolts. If Saudi Arabia were to be destroyed by it's (large majority) of almost-slaves, for example, that would do a LOT to eliminate slavery. Of course, like Holland before it, America is mostly on the side of the slavers in the name of stability.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#22

Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that employ slavery, or effective slavery :

Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh.

Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is part of a particular religion. And the fact that if that religion entrenches itself in a society, it has a very strong tendency to bring slavery back.

(Fun fact : know what the arabic word for slave is ? "Abed". Literally it means "black". "Black gold", when it was a popular term in the 19th and 20th centuries, referred to slaves, not oil.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#23
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punish…

My usual take on these things is it's more about money and what you can get away with locally than the character of the religions themselves.

Lots of very christian Americans had very christian outlooks on slavery being legal in the 1850s, and on unequal rights being the way of things (noah and ham) up until the 1960s. If I were looking for a religion that didn't have a history of justifying slavery, I'd point to maybe buddhism and taoism, maybe. Certainly none of the abrahamic religions (old testament) or hinduism.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#24

Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

Because this is not news. It has been going on for a while now. One of my cousin wanted to go to Qatar because he couldn't get a job. My father knowing this have been going on, stopped him. Thankfully he got a job as a chef to feed Bangladeshi refugees. Not a good paying job, but it's a whole lot better than slaving away in a Middle Easter country.

BTW Nepal didn't have ANY law for a year or two. I don't know if it is still the case but Nepal has been messy ever since the revolution(removal of the monarchy).

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#25
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punish…

If anyone is interested in exploring America's historic views of Islam (or Mohammedanism) I highly recommend the book "Power, Faith and Fantasy: America and the Middle East, 1776 to the Present."

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Faith-Fantasy-America-Present/dp...

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#26
post #22

Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that employ slavery, or effective slavery : Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is pa…

I'm more inclined to believe that the reason is socio-economic rather than religious. Many of those countries you listed are also a source of cheap goods for the West.

Edit: just to clarify, what I'm saying is that the majority of adherents to any religion aren't fundamentalists. They choose which parts of their holy scriptures to follow, and ignore the rest -- the vast majority aren't even aware of all of them.

Human nature being what it is, they are more likely to follow portions of scripture that benefit them in other ways, e.g. economically. They may likely have chosen to behave the same way regardless of their religion; the religion merely provides a convenient excuse.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#27
post #15
post #6

Yes, this is awful, but what more can you expect from the Middle East? On a more political note, did Al Jazeera, report on this ?

You should not paint all countries in the Middle East with the same brush.

I've only been to a few countries in the Middle East, so I can't generalise. But one thing common among these countries is the lack of warmth, sincerity and humility among the locals. It is one of the most unpleasant and hostile cultures that I have encountered in my years of travel.

They treat blue-collar foreigners as lesser humans.

EDIT: To clarify, I've only been to Qatar, UAE and Bahrain.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#28

Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview?

| Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview?

Except anarchists, I think "Randians" and most "free market advocates" are in favor of court (government) enforcement of contracts.

> He was 16

There's a concept of "age of consent" or "capacity" to contract.

> arranging a fake passport stating he was 20

Fraud.

> wages retained

Who would sign a contract like this? It's most likely a violation.

> deprived of the ID cards they need to move around freely without fear of arrest

Seems like a failure of the State, to be arresting people who are allowed to be there.

> demand their wages, a drastic step given that the authorities can simply expel them to penury

If "the authorities" refers to the State, I'd say it's another failure of government, not the free market.

> refusing to issue the exit permits they needed to return home

Yet another failure of the State, if I'm reading that correctly as a restriction of the freedom of movement: a basic human right which brutal, anti-capitalist regimes are infamous for violating (e.g. Berlin Wall). Historically, people tend to flee from less free (market) countries to more free (market) countries.

> the kafala system binds the worker to a single employer

Is "kafala" a system of laws? This sounds like Directive 10-289 which Ayn Rand rails against in Atlas Shrugged: "All workers, wage earners, and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment"

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#29
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punish…

This is not part of Islam, since you don't find it going on in Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Islamic Africa, or the West where muslims live as well. This is instead confined to the Gulf states.

I'm really very curious about where you're pulling all this stuff from.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#30
From another article on the topic by The Guardian [1]

The British engineering company Halcrow, part of the CH2M Hill group, is a lead consultant on the Lusail project responsible for "infrastructure design and construction supervision". CH2M Hill was recently appointed the official programme management consultant to the supreme committee. It says it has a "zero tolerance policy for the use of forced labour and other human trafficking practices".

Halcrow said: "Our supervision role of specific construction packages ensures adherence to site contract regulation for health, safety and environment. The terms of employment of a contractor's labour force is not under our direct purview."

So they've got a zero tolerance policy, unless you're talking about the actions of their contractors which is just, like, totally out of their control, man.

1. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...

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