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At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

theguardian.com

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Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#71

Post by smsm42 »

nikatwork wrote: post #51
jrmurad wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview? Except anarchists, I think "Randians" and most "free market advocates" are in favor of court (government) enforcement of contracts. > He was 16 There's a concept of "age of consent" or "capacity" to contract. > arranging a fake passport stating he was 20 Fraud. > wages retained Who would sign a contract like this…

My point (and I am being serious) is that these worker abuses seem to be the result of a complete lack of government regulations surrounding the labor force. However you do raise a good point, in this situation the workers are not free to pick up and leave, which invalidates it as an argument against free market advocation. I concede the discussion to you good sir.

It's not a lack of regulations, it's a lack of basic contract and law enforcement. If somebody promises you wages and does not pay, it's theft, plain and simple. One doesn't need any special regulations to prosecute theft, any basic legal system has prohibitions against theft.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#72

Post by smsm42 »

vacri wrote: post #55
jrmurad wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview? Except anarchists, I think "Randians" and most "free market advocates" are in favor of court (government) enforcement of contracts. > He was 16 There's a concept of "age of consent" or "capacity" to contract. > arranging a fake passport stating he was 20 Fraud. > wages retained Who would sign a contract like this…

It's a good thing it's illegal, that way these people can fight it in the courts with all the access to legal assistance they have. One of the biggest drawbacks to the libertarian 'fight-it-out-in-court' mindset is that it considers everyone to be equal, but only if they can afford a lawyer. The people that libertarianism fails the most are the people we're talking about right now.

You are confused between criminal and civil courts. You only need a lawyer for civil claims. For criminal claims, the state is your lawyer (of course, if you're the victim), and the whole state criminal system was intended exactly to secure personal rights, before it was hijacked to prosecute such heinous crimes as barbering without license and smoking wrong species of plant. Libertarianism never fails on that because libertarianism claims exactly that - that the purpose of the state is to protect personal rights and nothing else. In this example, the state is failing spectacularly and the only task for which it may exist - how it is a libertarians problem? Libertarianism didn't fail these people, the state in whose jurisdiction they are did.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#73

Post by chaostheory »

waps wrote: post #21
camus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punish…

Not sure if you missed it based on your post, but camus was being sarcastic

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#74

Post by 616c »

kps wrote: post #19
dajohnson89 wrote: post #10

Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

The Guardian is Britain's third biggest newspaper, and the slavery story is on the front page. Close enough?

The article is currently front page [0] on Doha News [1], which many expats read daily in their office.

So, yes, it is front page as far as I concerned. Few people who live around this area would read state-run newspapers.

[0] http://dohanews.co/post/62313447527/guardian-nepali-workers-...

[1] http://dohanews.co

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#75

Post by runehol »

waps wrote: post #22
dajohnson89 wrote: post #10

Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that employ slavery, or effective slavery : Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is pa…

Others have discussed the slavery claims, I'll address the linguistic claims.

The three-letter root عبد, transliterated "3abd", or more inaccurately, "Abed", has meanings related to servant and slaves. It does not mean black. This can be seen in this entry of the Hans Wehr dictionary - http://tinyurl.com/pk2alcu . You might be familiar with this root from the Arabic male name Abdallah or 3abdallah - this literally means "Servant of God".

Side note - I'm using the letter 3 to indicate the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin letter, which is a throaty consonant in Arabic that is hard for Westerners to pronounce and hear. Because of this, it is sometimes sliced off and ignored when Arabic words are transliterated to the Latin alphabet. However, making claims about the Arabic language while ignoring it is a bit like making claims about the etymology of English words while ignoring the difference between l and r - it can lead you seriously astray.

The color black is أسود / aswad (masculine) or سوداء / sauda2 (feminine) in Arabic, all derived from the three-letter root سود (s-u-d). Dictionary entry at http://tinyurl.com/q7cadg4 . You may recognize this root from the country سودان / Sudan. However, it should not be confused with Saudi Arabia, which is سعودية or sa3udia. Again, the Ayin is present in the word and gives it a very different meaning.

In general, Arabic has a number of consonants that are hard to distinguish for Westerners - this includes the Ayin, the gh (guttural r), the difference between aspirated and non-aspirated h, the difference between emphatic and non-emphatic t, s, d and dh. This means it is hard to represent Arabic accurately with the Latin alphabet without extending it in ways unfamiliar to regular readers. I tend to trust claims about Arabic if the Arabic alphabet is used to explain them, otherwise I would be fairly skeptical.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#76

Post by vellum »

dm8 wrote: post #3

Lot of Indians also work in these countries due to poverty reasons. I feel privileged to be born in a relatively wealthy and educated family in India. If it was not the case may be I would have one of the migrant workers like them. If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good working conditions and pay more money. Few million dollars will hardly going to move needle for them. I smell c…

If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good working conditions and pay more money

Racism. There's a certain pecking order in the Gulf: 1.) Locals, 2.) Other Gulf nationals, 3.) Whites (Western), 4.) Non-white professionals (Western) 5.) Other Arabs (professionals), 5.) South Asian professionals, 6.) Working class (busboys/waiters/etc.), 7.) Day laborers (mostly South Asian).

If you see a certain race/class as subhuman, why would you provide them with good working conditions?

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#77

Post by paganel »

camus wrote: post #16
vacri wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured servitude.

It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

> Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world

As an European (and football fan to boot) I'm more saddened that the latest issue of The Economist had a full inside-page ad for Qatar Airways, featuring Lionel Messi and a couple of other Barcelona stars, all mingled with "genuine" customers with a sheik or two thrown in for good measure.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#78

Post by kamaal »

smsm42 wrote: post #70
kamaal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" This has nothing to do with Islam. This is all about money and a few rich idiots abusing their power. Bulk of the practices you associate with any religion, are not that of a religion but that of the local civilization at that point of time. Your post resembles the attitude of the western masses today, which is to hold the perception created b…

>>> People like these should think about their own morals before talking about somebody else's. People like Winston Churchill can't think anything because they, like Winston Churchill, have been dead for decades. And in all civilized countries slavery has long been illegal. So if in one country - namely Qatar - institution of slavery still exists, Churchill quote from the thirties is not actually a good way to preven…

>>People like Winston Churchill can't think anything because they, like Winston Churchill, have been dead for decades.

They could think when they were alive. To talk about freedom and morals, when your own country has set up colonies all round the globe and committing atrocities is hypocrisy.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#79

Post by kamaal »

waps wrote: post #66
kamaal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" This has nothing to do with Islam. This is all about money and a few rich idiots abusing their power. Bulk of the practices you associate with any religion, are not that of a religion but that of the local civilization at that point of time. Your post resembles the attitude of the western masses today, which is to hold the perception created b…

I don't understand. What exactly are you saying is not true : 1) islam is a system of laws 2) those laws include slavery 3) people who are fighting to introduce those laws to society are reintroducing legal slavery 4) the muslim world is the major hotbet of slavery Copious evidence for all claims is easy to come by. Start with : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery And if you want to hear it from an…

The problem in Qatar is vastly the exploitation of poor, by the rich. Which is hardly any different than situations in certain parts of China, India, North Korea and where not?

I'm pretty darn sure you don't talk about religion of people who commit suicides in those Foxconn factories.

I don't know what agenda you hold in continually dragging Islam into all this.

Re: At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

#80

Post by sampk »

kamaal wrote: post #79
waps wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. What exactly are you saying is not true : 1) islam is a system of laws 2) those laws include slavery 3) people who are fighting to introduce those laws to society are reintroducing legal slavery 4) the muslim world is the major hotbet of slavery Copious evidence for all claims is easy to come by. Start with : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery And if you want to hear it from an…

The problem in Qatar is vastly the exploitation of poor, by the rich. Which is hardly any different than situations in certain parts of China, India, North Korea and where not? I'm pretty darn sure you don't talk about religion of people who commit suicides in those Foxconn factories. I don't know what agenda you hold in continually dragging Islam into all this.

We don't talk about their religion because their religion doesn't encourage slavery, obviously.
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