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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#151

Post by aestra »

mpyne wrote: post #142
aestra wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have also never seen a case of autism. What? You can't tell just by looking at someone if they have autism. You must have some sort of preconceived notions of what autism looks like. For example, here is two people in my family with autism (they are identical twins) http://i.imgur.com/9PP5O6T.jpg http://i.imgur.com/aedlKYR.jpg Rather than saying something incredibly ignorant like "I've never seen it," why don't we…

I think he simply meant that he's never met someone with autism, in his experience. The point to that being that, if vaccines do cause autism, he should have met someone with autism. The fact that he didn't seems to argue against the hypothesis that vaccines do cause autism.

My point, how does the grandparent know he's never met someone with autism? Autism isn't always a visible disease. The faces of autism are the faces of everyday people. My guess is they have meet or seen an autistic person, and didn't know they were autistic because they have some kind of preconceived notion of what an autistic person looks or sounds like or acts like. Look at the pictures I posted above of my two autistic family members, if you were to see them out and about, would you think "there's some autistic kids?" Well, they aren't kids anymore, they are in their early 20s.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#152

Post by pessimizer »

raphinou wrote: post #135
pessimizer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Looking at the facts lead me to a moderate position. Mention them, rather than "moderation", and people may not downvote you.

I listed an example about the rotavirus in my subsequent comments, but here's another one mentioned by Patrick_devine in the comments: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/09... This illustrates that the precautionary principle[1] might sometimes be forgotten or be put on the background. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

That's a random fact, but not evidence in support of your thesis, which is that the currently accepted set of vaccines should be evaluated for their costs and benefits by individuals.

The evidence that individuals are better equipped and are less biased than the current scientific establishment to evaluate the costs and benefits of a particular vaccine is the evidence I'm looking for. The evidence that vaccine X was crappy is not. Evidence of people trying to get a new vaccine into the market or required for children is definitely not.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#153

Post by ejstronge »

wusher wrote: post #129
jmadsen wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is, one of the worst pandemics in human history is fairly recent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic There are (a few) people alive today who remember it. It killed between 1.5 and 3 times as many people as the earlier WWI - but isn't as sexy as war, so hardly anyone studies it (relatively speaking)

Also, the pandemic was made worse due to over medicating the sick http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091002132346.ht...

I hadn't heard about this so I looked up the primary reference[1]. I'm not sure that high aspirin regimens (the overmedication you're referring to) would explain the high mortality of the flu outside the U.S.

Further, the author of the study cautions that this is a correlation that could be important given our changed understanding of aspirin toxicity and not a proven finding.

[1] http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/49/9/1405

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#154

Post by mcguire »

raphinou wrote: post #109
jlgreco wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the expertise to make that call, and neither I suspect do you. I am comfortable with the CDC making that call. Moderated positions should not be your priority. Rather factually correct and defensible positions should be.

Looking at the facts lead me to a moderate position. I let you feel confortable following the cdc, i prefer to keep a critical mind, though i agree it is hard for non experts like us to get good and objective information.

"...you feel confortable following the cdc, i prefer to keep a critical mind..."

* Do you have information that is not available to the CDC?

* Do you have evidence that the CDC is biased in a fashion that prevents it from being suitably "critical"?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#155

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

pkennedy wrote: post #130
Steuard wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, my impression is that vaccination refusal is more common among left-wing anti-corporate types than among fundamentalist Christians. It thrives any time there are non-rational beliefs, but it doesn't seem to be too picky about which kind.

One of the current big US measles outbreaks is church-related: http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942/texas-megachurch-at-... My anecdotal experience among anti-vaccination people I've known is that they're only weakly correlated with religion or politics--leaning slightly left but still all over the map.

20-ish cases is not what I would call a big outbreak. Some of those affected in Texas had received vaccinations, but for whatever reason[1], weren't protected.

[1] I guess they had either neglected to get a booster, were not scheduled to receive the full series of shots, or the vaccine's efficacy isn't what it is claimed to be.

>My anecdotal experience among anti-vaccination people I've known is that they're only weakly correlated with religion or politics

Here is another anec-data point for you. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I am more skeptical / cautious than most (we selectively decline / delay vaccinations). I am also Atheist. My impression is that the skepticism is rooted more in lack of trust in authorities, than religion.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#156

Post by [deleted] »

aestra wrote: post #151
mpyne wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he simply meant that he's never met someone with autism, in his experience. The point to that being that, if vaccines do cause autism, he should have met someone with autism. The fact that he didn't seems to argue against the hypothesis that vaccines do cause autism.

My point, how does the grandparent know he's never met someone with autism? Autism isn't always a visible disease. The faces of autism are the faces of everyday people. My guess is they have meet or seen an autistic person, and didn't know they were autistic because they have some kind of preconceived notion of what an autistic person looks or sounds like or acts like. Look at the pictures I posted above of my two au…

[deleted]

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#157

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

venomsnake wrote: post #150
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't so much a fear of technology, as a distrust of the authorities. Like the author said, some of it has a rational basis, and some does not. I know vaccines usually work, and are mostly safe. I remain very skeptical though for several reasons including: The difficulty of proving vaccine injury, and inadequate remedies. The business incentives caused by the NVCIA[1] (no fault vaccine court). Personal experience…

HEP-B is one of the vaccines that a person can take anytime. (It is actually combined A+B 3 shot IIRC). HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty. But it is extremely virulent sadly.

>HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty.

Right, we determined the risk of contracting Hep-B was very low for infants. The other risk factors are blood transfusions, medical malpractice. They will get it before they start school. There is also very low chance for an infected infant/toddler to spread Hep-B so, no ethical worries there, unlike MMR.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#158

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

jlgreco wrote: post #136
pkennedy wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the current big US measles outbreaks is church-related: http://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/217746942/texas-megachurch-at-... My anecdotal experience among anti-vaccination people I've known is that they're only weakly correlated with religion or politics--leaning slightly left but still all over the map.

It is a conspiracy thing. Left or right wing conspiracy-minded people adopt it. Some people replace vaccines with "faith healing", others replace it with new-age shit.

Try lack of trust, or distrust in authority, it sounds better than conspiracy. Some replace vaccines with fear of disease, and anger at the lack of a trustworthy gov't.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#159

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

TsiCClawOfLight wrote: post #45
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

+1 for Bad Science, that book is amazing! Not only in this respect; it covers many topics really, really well. Everyone should have read it.

Bad Pharma too, also by Goldacre.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#160

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

auctiontheory wrote: post #31

Yes, I think we should all be vaccinated, as the powers that be confidently tell us. And as a consumer of medicine, I observe that doctors are equally confident when they really don't know what they're talking about, and when their opinions aren't substantiated by science. (The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.) And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden. So…

And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden.

I had not heard of that until now, but that will be incredibly damaging to vaccination efforts in developing countries (where vaccination is most effective).

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