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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#141

Post by brown9-2 »

minikites wrote: post #105
up_and_up wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids. My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and not…

Why not vaccinate for chickenpox? Helps reduce chance of scarring and reduces the chance for shingles. When I was a kid I gave chicken pox to my mom who got super sick. It would have been nice to have a vaccine back then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine I'm surprised at the number of comments on a tech site showing fear of technology.

As an adult who had shingles, allow me to add that you definitely do not want shingles and it is not as benign as most of us remember childhood chicken pox as.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#142

Post by mpyne »

aestra wrote: post #121
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

>I have also never seen a case of autism. What? You can't tell just by looking at someone if they have autism. You must have some sort of preconceived notions of what autism looks like. For example, here is two people in my family with autism (they are identical twins) http://i.imgur.com/9PP5O6T.jpg http://i.imgur.com/aedlKYR.jpg Rather than saying something incredibly ignorant like "I've never seen it," why don't we…

I think he simply meant that he's never met someone with autism, in his experience.

The point to that being that, if vaccines do cause autism, he should have met someone with autism. The fact that he didn't seems to argue against the hypothesis that vaccines do cause autism.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#143

Post by ecopoesis »

up_and_up wrote: post #97
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids. My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and not…

Chicken pox is not harmless. It kills adults, and if you get it as a child you can get shingles as an adult which is debilitating.

Vaccinating on your own schedule is dumb. Do you have a MD? Did you develop the vaccine? Trust the experts.

Skipping vaccines is dumb. Science and medicine make progress. To put this in HN terms: this is like saying I'm going to build my startup's website using DOS and XTs, because that's what existed when I was a kid. It's a dumb idea.

If there's a vaccine available: get it. There is no scientific reason not to. Skipping vaccinations means your an irresponsible parent and member of society.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#144

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

minikites wrote: post #105
up_and_up wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids. My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and not…

Why not vaccinate for chickenpox? Helps reduce chance of scarring and reduces the chance for shingles. When I was a kid I gave chicken pox to my mom who got super sick. It would have been nice to have a vaccine back then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine I'm surprised at the number of comments on a tech site showing fear of technology.

It isn't so much a fear of technology, as a distrust of the authorities. Like the author said, some of it has a rational basis, and some does not. I know vaccines usually work, and are mostly safe. I remain very skeptical though for several reasons including: The difficulty of proving vaccine injury, and inadequate remedies. The business incentives caused by the NVCIA[1] (no fault vaccine court). Personal experience with doctors, pediatricians, and other medical professionals. The lack of credible statistics for vaccine adverse reactions.

It is nearly impossible to find authorities on the subject who can calmly and rationally explain the risks and benefits, and help you evaluate the risk properly. It is also nearly impossible to find objective impartial information from any source. The "debate" on the subject is very polarized. Skepticism is often treated as heresy or idiocy.

We still vaccinate our children, but not for everything[2], and not always on schedule.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Inj...

[2] We delayed the HEP-B at birth and opted not to take the rotavirus vaccine.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#145

Post by samatman »

hrktb wrote: post #50
rbourke wrote: post #9

The effectiveness of vaccines rely on 'herd immunity', that is: you need more than 90% of a population immunised to stop a disease spreading (as vaccines are never 100% effective)(also varies according to vaccine types/adjuvants and disease contagiousness) So by not vaccinating your self/dependents you are actually extremely selfish as you are benefiting from herd immunity whilst at the same time avoiding the (small)…

I am pro vaccination for anything that has sufficient maturity (high proof of action/low enough risk). For the sake of the point, I'll just put out that vaccination is for the good of the community, but this community might not fully commit to support members who react badly to vaccines. I don't refer to direct health concerns if something goes bad, but on the long term effects when there is some disability left. You…

In a conversation like this, it's important to discount hypothetical risks. Vaccination has been around for a long time. Hypothetically, there could be one with a 40% risk of long-term disability. But there isn't.

Show me an example of disability caused by vaccination (they exist), complete with a percentage estimate of how many people will suffer. Then we can talk about the associated costs.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#146

Post by ganeumann »

sliverstorm wrote: post #35
rhizome wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polio existed in the US within the memories of many people still alive.

Sure, but polio was virtually eliminated in America by 1980, and how old were today's non-vaccinating parents in 1980? Or 1953, for that matter- the year of the last polio outbreak?

Re polio: read "Splendid Solution: Jonas Salk and the Conquest of Polio", it tells the story of the fear that polio inspired and the public health efforts--including taking sick children away from their parents, forcibly if necessary--that it occasioned. Although not as widespread as the flu, polio was far more feared because of its seeming random occurrence and often debilitating effects on even its survivors.

I'm not one to call things miracles. But if I were, the progress of anti-microbials in the century to the 1950s would be the one. Vaccines, sulpha drugs, antibiotics... it's interesting that this wave of science-driven discovery is given such short shrift among the tech community, it has certainly (alright, arguably) made a greater difference to our species than any other thing we've done.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#147

Post by mpyne »

altero wrote: post #30
bayesianhorse wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing some of the details on vaccination, I can't agree. There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. Competition is usually harder. I wouldn't call the bird/pig flu story hype. There was a wide consensus that these viruses were a threat and might have the potential for a pandemic. It killed a lot of people, and as far as I remember it had a higher mortality rate than…

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities. Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year. There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

The DOD mandates flu vaccination every year for their servicemembers (who can't simply "take a couple of weeks off"). It does indeed usually significantly decrease the incidence of flu infection.

If it didn't the DOD would probably find some better way to spend that money, like buying a missile or something. :P

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#148

Post by streptomycin »

ewoodrich wrote: post #91
auctiontheory wrote: post #31

Yes, I think we should all be vaccinated, as the powers that be confidently tell us. And as a consumer of medicine, I observe that doctors are equally confident when they really don't know what they're talking about, and when their opinions aren't substantiated by science. (The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.) And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden. So…

So as to not provide any more baseless evidence against vaccines under the guise of impartial reasoning, the CIA led vaccination drive actually did provide vaccines in a poorly developed region, but the data collected led to the capture of Bin Laden. In and of itself, the vaccination drive wasn't some sort of hoax, and it had legitimate doctors and results. It had just been co-opted by the CIA for covert intelligence…

It was a hoax. You need multiple doses of the vaccine over a span of months for it to work. They didn't do that.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-cia-fak...

The misguided vaccine program in Pakistan was started in a poor neighborhood of Abbottabad, no doubt to give it an air of legitimacy. Yet after the first in a standard series of three hepatitis B shots was given, the effort was abandoned so that the team could move to bin Laden's wealthier community.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#149

Post by mpyne »

Patrick_Devine wrote: post #17
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have valid, replicatable evidence where vaccines cause harm, I'm all ears. But if you're going to rely on anecdotal evidence, GTFO. I'm tired of hearing people not vaccinating their children and causing public health issues because they believe they're more informed than the CDC.

Here's an example where vaccines cause harm: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/09... By and large though, vaccines are amazing. Just the fact that we have a vaccine which can protect against influenza is pretty fantastic. Life unfortunately always throws you spanners, so even though I think the people who live in the vaccine autism universe are bat shit crazy, it's still good to have people ta…

Well it's still possible to be pro-vaccine in general but against a specific vaccine that does not hold up its end of the risk/reward bargain.

There aren't simply two sides where 1 is always pro-vaccine and the other is always quoting Wakefield.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#150

Post by venomsnake »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #144
minikites wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not vaccinate for chickenpox? Helps reduce chance of scarring and reduces the chance for shingles. When I was a kid I gave chicken pox to my mom who got super sick. It would have been nice to have a vaccine back then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine I'm surprised at the number of comments on a tech site showing fear of technology.

It isn't so much a fear of technology, as a distrust of the authorities. Like the author said, some of it has a rational basis, and some does not. I know vaccines usually work, and are mostly safe. I remain very skeptical though for several reasons including: The difficulty of proving vaccine injury, and inadequate remedies. The business incentives caused by the NVCIA[1] (no fault vaccine court). Personal experience…

HEP-B is one of the vaccines that a person can take anytime. (It is actually combined A+B 3 shot IIRC). HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty. But it is extremely virulent sadly.
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