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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#21

Post by broodbucket »

sitharus wrote: post #16

I've had the fun experience of debating with anti-vaccine people. Outside of the religious 'god will protect us' line, which I can't really argue with as it's a matter of faith, the vaccines cause autism line keeps coming up. Unfortunately for us a condition that we don't really understand is far more prevalent than the side-effects of preventable diseases. I've never met anyone who's experienced post-polio syndrome…

The paper saying that the MMR vaccine causes autism (which is where the whole concept came from) was fraudulent, so it's not just "well, a side effect is better than the disease", it's total misguidance.

Also, here's an amusing Penn & Teller clip that shares your view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#22

Post by altero »

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless).

Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-)

disclaimer: I am well educated and my children got full vaccination.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#23

Post by venomsnake »

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young.

I have also never seen a case of autism.

In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots.

A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10 years. He was constantly sick and popping antibiotics like tic-tacs. If the herd immunity was not so strong he would have been dead.

The stuff we vaccinate against is not harmless.

I would also recommend Ben Goldacre's "bad science" where he makes one of the best analysis of the MMR scare insanity and its origins and development. It is mostly the media's fault.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#24

Post by Qantourisc »

broodbucket wrote: post #21
sitharus wrote: post #16

I've had the fun experience of debating with anti-vaccine people. Outside of the religious 'god will protect us' line, which I can't really argue with as it's a matter of faith, the vaccines cause autism line keeps coming up. Unfortunately for us a condition that we don't really understand is far more prevalent than the side-effects of preventable diseases. I've never met anyone who's experienced post-polio syndrome…

The paper saying that the MMR vaccine causes autism (which is where the whole concept came from) was fraudulent, so it's not just "well, a side effect is better than the disease", it's total misguidance. Also, here's an amusing Penn & Teller clip that shares your view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

Depending on the decease this side-effect IS the better alternative. It's better to have 1 autism then 100 dead people. Unless you can know in advance who will develop side-effect, they should take their changes with dead.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#25

Post by bayesianhorse »

altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

Knowing some of the details on vaccination, I can't agree. There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. Competition is usually harder.

I wouldn't call the bird/pig flu story hype. There was a wide consensus that these viruses were a threat and might have the potential for a pandemic. It killed a lot of people, and as far as I remember it had a higher mortality rate than most flus. So the threat was real.

Now we know the virus probably didn't have the potential. In hindsight. I hope the next time there is a preventable pandemic threat people don't trump up the anti-pharma rhetoric and say "last time it wasn't so bad, was it?"

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#26

Post by kevinwuhoo »

altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

[citation needed]

Edit: I was doing academic influenza drug discovery research at the height of the H5N1 threat. 59% morality rate [1] is no "hype". Your generalization of viruses mutating "too fast" is a false clause. Vaccination against influenza isn't "useless", it's actually effective [2].

[1]: http://www.who.int/influenza/human_animal_interface/EN_GIP_2...

[2]: https://www.landesbioscience.com/article/19917/full_text/#lo...

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#27

Post by tjogin »

altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

How do you know that bird/pig flu wouldn't have had more severe impact if it wasn't for the vaccinations?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#28

Post by jlgreco »

oceanstone wrote: post #11
rbourke wrote: post #9

The effectiveness of vaccines rely on 'herd immunity', that is: you need more than 90% of a population immunised to stop a disease spreading (as vaccines are never 100% effective)(also varies according to vaccine types/adjuvants and disease contagiousness) So by not vaccinating your self/dependents you are actually extremely selfish as you are benefiting from herd immunity whilst at the same time avoiding the (small)…

From my research, people who avoid vaccines are usually afraid of (big) side reactions, like infertility or autism.

Oh, those are "big" (as in, serious, though rare; or serious, but doesn't fucking happen...) but do you know what is bigger? Somebody who could not get immunized dying because you refused to get immunized.

That is why it is selfish. Incredibly selfish.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#29

Post by rhizome »

sliverstorm wrote: post #15
jared314 wrote: post #4

> Most people have not lived in a time of plagues or remember their effects. Most people do not read history or look at the morbidity and mortality of vaccine-preventable illnesses in the third world. This is another great example of why people need to be taught actual history, not the version censored "for their young minds". The people who change curricula and edit textbooks to remove the unpleasant memories, or fo…

I think people's own minds provide some of that effect. Firstly, secretly wondering if the numbers aren't being exaggerated for effect and that sort of thinking. Secondly, it's difficult to really wrap your head around a disease that killed a third of the population. It's so ridiculous it's hard to fathom.

Polio existed in the US within the memories of many people still alive.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#30

Post by altero »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #25
altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

Knowing some of the details on vaccination, I can't agree. There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. Competition is usually harder. I wouldn't call the bird/pig flu story hype. There was a wide consensus that these viruses were a threat and might have the potential for a pandemic. It killed a lot of people, and as far as I remember it had a higher mortality rate than…

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs.

But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities.

Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year.

There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

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