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Textmate2 Goes Open Source

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Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#151

Post by jonknee »

endersshadow wrote: post #75
thejerz wrote: post #53

I don't want to pick on Allan Odgaard, but I think the way he's handled the TM2 project is pretty bad. Allen is a great guy and I love TM. However, here are some facts. TM2 has taken SIX YEARS. It was "90% done" 2009. This is a living, breathing case study in why quick customer-driven releases are better than "big upfront plans" and "giant system rewrites." Anyone who has developed a major application knows what I'm…

It's a famous Joel Spolsky essay: Things You Should Never Do, Part 1 [1]. Never do a full system rewrite. Pain and sadness follow. [1]: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

And Joel didn't even hit on having financial independence. He didn't need to ship and didn't.

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#153

Post by jdonaldson »

batista wrote: post #89

If we are completely honest, Textmate was always a sub-par editor. No Vim or Emacs style brilliantness, no BBEdit style tons of features and mature engine, no IntelliJ like, er, intelligence, no ST2 comprehensiveness, etc etc. Plus, the Textmate 1.x text engine was probably a mess too -- I remember the very first versions being laggy (and that's coming from someone who doesn't find even Eclipse laggy). That he couldn…

"brilliantness"? Are you kidding? Have you worked with vimscript? Oh well, at the risk of feeding a troll...

Textmate introduced a huge number of features that now show up in other editors. Snippets, command-t, a tightly integrated community-driven extension system.

Textmate was a lightweight editor for lightweight dynamically typed languages. It was the perfect contrast to Eclipse and Java, and was instrumental in changing the status quo for web development (for the better, imho).

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#154

Post by jlgreco »

Legion wrote: post #129
jlgreco wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No see, you are including more sensible factors in your calculation of utility. The issue is just justifying price with "how much have you used it for work related activities" , which is silly for just about everything except maybe soothing buyers remorse. I have an old Model M at home that I value at a hell of a lot more than $10; I am not here to argue the merits of expensive keyboards. My point though is that the…

I downvoted your original response, but your point became better articulated as you went. The value is in replaceability. It comes down to the question, "if I take this away from you, what will you do then?". Textmate was valuable because it was a piece of software that its users could not easily replace to their satisfaction. If I take your $10 keyboard away, your next move would be to pick up some other $10 keyboar…

I will readily agree that Textmate has value. Great value to some users.

My only issue is with what I saw as a suggestion that if you are dissatisfied with a purchase then you can offset that by using that purchase a lot.

Presumably owenjones thinks he paid too much for textmate/textmate2, and presumably was not planning on using textmate/textmate2 for less than two years when he thought it was a good deal. Pointing out that he should be satisfied because he used his purchase for two years so far seems very silly to me.

If you use something for longer than its expected lifespan, then I can see it. If you buy a car expecting it to last 100k miles but it lasts 200k miles instead, then yes you should feel satisfied with your purchase even if you feel you were being ripped off at the time by the dealer. -- Now, if you were planning on 100k miles, and got 100k miles, then simply getting the usage you were planning on getting at purchase time really shouldn't make you feel better about being overcharged.

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#155

Post by eblume »

ryanisinallofus wrote: post #107
emehrkay wrote: post #38

I've been using Textmate 2 for the past week or so and I still prefer 1 + missing drawer. For me, the only thing Textmate 1 is missing are split views (something 2 is missing as well). I wonder if there is still enough interest in the app where people will contribute all of the community's desired changes -- I hope there is. Am I one of the only Textmate users who feel that Sublime isn't the right "upgrade"? I much p…

ST2 is native enough for me and cross-platform should be on the list of every programmer's requirements for a text editor. I use Vim on OS X right now and I like it but used ST2 just yesterday (odd timing). I agree with others that it is basically the TM2 we were waiting for.

If you haven't heard of it, ST2 has something called "Vintage Mode" which adopts a fairly large subset of the Vi/m commands. It will completely change the command set of ST2 and gets close enough to Vi for most of my needs. Notably absent is the search/replace syntax of vim, but ST2's works well enough I suppose.

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#156

Post by inexplicable »

Camillo wrote: post #137
frou_dh wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel ST2 is healthily past "good enough" as a Mac application. For examples of punting on that responsibility completely, look at JetBrains stuff or MonoDevelop.

I really want to like ST2, because it seems to have the fastest text engine of the current crop of editors; but as a Mac application, it's just barely better than Emacs. 1) The GUI is incomplete: look at the preferences, for instance. To change a setting, you have to open the defaults settings file, find the setting you want, copy it into a different file (user settings), and change it there. Actually, I take it back…

I second the other commenter here. I love the way settings are managed in ST2.

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#157

Post by robotresearcher »

jlgreco wrote: post #61
89a wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Did you use it for your job? How many hours did you use it? Well worth the $50

That is a terrible way to measure utility, there are so many other factors to consider. I use my keyboard for work constantly , but it is not worth more than maybe $10 to me.

Surely it's worth no less than its replacement cost, which is the price of the replacement keyboard plus the work lost due to the time spent getting it and plugging it in.

This is only going to be <$10 in general if you have a pile of spares right to hand, with unit cost <($10 - epsilon). Not having a spare, it'd cost me a lot more than that to replace my keyboard. Gulp. Better get one...

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#158

Post by batista »

benihana wrote: post #128
batista wrote: post #89

If we are completely honest, Textmate was always a sub-par editor. No Vim or Emacs style brilliantness, no BBEdit style tons of features and mature engine, no IntelliJ like, er, intelligence, no ST2 comprehensiveness, etc etc. Plus, the Textmate 1.x text engine was probably a mess too -- I remember the very first versions being laggy (and that's coming from someone who doesn't find even Eclipse laggy). That he couldn…

> I don't think Textmate deserved all that success --it should have happened to a better editor. This doesn't make much sense. You say it appeared at the right time and was pretty and native on OS X. What better editors deserved the success it had that were available when TextMate was popular? Which editors were available on OS X that weren't giant IDEs or VIM and Emacs style editors that have a ridiculously steep le…

>This doesn't make much sense. You say it appeared at the right time and was pretty and native on OS X. What better editors deserved the success it had that were available when TextMate was popular?

The fact that there wasn't another editor that fulfilled all those "needs" at the time (mainly: simple, native looking) does not mean that it deserved it's success. What I'm saying is, it got its success not because it was better than the competition but because there was no competition.

So, I just wish that something better was available at the time with the wanted features (mainly: simple to use and native looking). It would have been better for all in the long run.

>I've never understood when people say something or someone doesn't deserve something they've earned.

You can earn something for lots of reasons, not always the best of reasons. Nixon got the vote, doesn't mean he also deserved it.

>TextMate is successful because lots of people bought it. Who are you to judge what deserves to be successful and what doesn't, especially when history seems to disagree with you?

Actually history seems to agree with me. Did you miss the part when the promised 2 was worked on for 6 years, got nowhere, delivered a disappointing alpha and got dump half-heartedly (as in with GPLv3, with the intention to continue commercial development) on GitHub?

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#159

Post by robmil »

luriel wrote: post #123
thejerz wrote: post #53

I don't want to pick on Allan Odgaard, but I think the way he's handled the TM2 project is pretty bad. Allen is a great guy and I love TM. However, here are some facts. TM2 has taken SIX YEARS. It was "90% done" 2009. This is a living, breathing case study in why quick customer-driven releases are better than "big upfront plans" and "giant system rewrites." Anyone who has developed a major application knows what I'm…

Sounds like a textbook example of Second System Syndrome.

That, and a reflection of the ecosystem as it was when TM2 first started development; it's a lot easier to countenance a full rewrite when you're by far the dominant player in your particular market.

Re: Textmate2 Goes Open Source

#160

Post by thoughtsimple »

chrisrhoden wrote: post #112
ChiperSoft wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That setting only changes the ability to launch an app right after download by double clicking it. It doesn't actually prevent the program from running, you just have to take more steps to launch it the first time. However TM is being kept out of the app store for other reasons, such as it's ability to prompt for an administrator password to allow writing to protected files.

Yeah, this is not true. There is a separate setting which controls a pop-up confirming whether or not you want to run an app that you downloaded, the first time you attempt to run it. The setting referred to here actually BLOCKS the running of new non-app-store (or, by default, non-signed) applications. http://imgur.com/7bduA Apparently, you can alt-click and select open, but my gut tells me that this was an oversigh…

You can always just execute the command:

xattr -d com.apple.quarantine myTrojan.app

Now you can run the application no matter what the Gatekeeper setting is set to. No need to be paranoid. Gatekeeper isn't meant to lock down the Mac against yourself. It is a security feature only.

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