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3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

stopgas.org

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Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#151

Post by DocTomoe »

tluyben2 wrote: post #12
dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

It is not comfortable but inside houses you do not freeze to death like that. Sleep in your clothes, buy an electric heater next to your bed, get an electric blanket etc. I slept for quite a long time like that in the Netherlands because my mates squat building had no heat. That was during one of the coldest winters where all canals in Amsterdam were frozen enough to skate on. So yeah, not comfortable but freezing to…

How to set up Germans for a bloody revolution and make them pro-Russian in three easy steps.

1) Make fuel extremely expensive. 2) Quickly massively lower standard of living, e.g. by turning off heating in winter/early spring 3) Purposefully crash the economy, leading to mass unemployment.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#152

Post by est31 »

sendfoods wrote: post #95
est31 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those 10 years require the use of fracking, which is I think too bad for the environment, especially for a country as densely populated as Germany. The resources that don't require fracking are only enough for 1-2 years of consumption at current levels.

That would be enough until we get LPG from Qatar, which is being reported as the earliest in Summer 2023.

Not sure how realistic it is to access the resources in such a short time frame.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#153

Post by qaq »

internet_user wrote: post #137
qaq wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good Honest deal you got em.

Whats with snark? seems that guarantees weren't worth the paper written on, in the first place, but everyone keeps on talking about them as if they were ironclad somehow. The sad truth is there was no real guarantees at all, just an empty promise to make it politically feasible for the Ukrainian politicians to sign.

Sorry dealing with a lot of stress related to what is happening.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#154

Post by Archelaos »

motoboi wrote: post #46

I wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign. Germany cannot function without Russian gas right now. Simple there isn’t enough BTU’s. Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange. Perfectly fine and environmentally friendly nuclear power plants for dependency from Russian natural gas. Why?

> Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange.

For the same reason, the US has long been dependent on Russia for space travel and is still dependent for the ISS: It worked for a long time quite well, was cheaper and more secure than the alternatives, and that Putin running amok was a scenario that most people did not think was likely, if they have imagined it at all. Recall that until recently the US was more concerned about China than Russia.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#155

Post by internet_user »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #128
sendfoods wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate? Why is it a subsidy for Russia? Wouldn't it be a pretty unbureaucratic measure with immediate benefit for the consumer?

Lowering the price of something increases the demand.

demand for gasoline is fairly inelastic.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#156

Post by [deleted] »

est31 wrote: post #88
sendfoods wrote: post #63

Does anybody know why Germany isn't really using their domestic gas fields? According to the german EPA equivalent[1] there's enough for 10 years of usage. While I agree with the need to shut off Nordstream I, I am not sure Germany can afford this right now due to historically low gas reserves [2]. I have to disagree with the tone of the statement "We can afford the consequences". Who is "we"? The lower middle class…

Those 10 years require the use of fracking, which is I think too bad for the environment, especially for a country as densely populated as Germany. The resources that don't require fracking are only enough for 1-2 years of consumption at current levels.

[deleted]

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#157

Post by macspoofing »

j-pb wrote: post #47
macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

Or on batteries, or on liquid salt thermal storage upgrades for old fossil plants, or on hydro storage, or on salt cavern pneumatic pressure, or on hydrogen, or on regenerative iron dust cycles, or... The idea that it's nuclear or fossil for baseload is a false dichotomy, that ingores the dozens of intermediary storage solutions. Solar is currently the cheapest source of energy with a margin. Add storage to an overpr…

>Or on batteries, or on liquid salt thermal storage upgrades for old fossil plants, or on hydro storage, or on salt cavern pneumatic pressure, or on hydrogen, or on regenerative iron dust cycles, or...

None of those are actual options. Pumped hydro is pretty much the only viable option but you need the geography for it. Germany does not have the geography to roll out pumped hydro at enough of a scale to bridge the intermittency issues with renewables.

But don't believe me, look at the present reality - there is no nation on earth that is able to power it's economy with renewables (+batteries). The only viable option is hydro-electric and unfortunately, we've pretty much ran out of places to dam.

>Solar is currently the cheapest source of energy with a margin.

Again, there is no battery technology that is able to store enough excess energy to power a modern economy (or even a mid-size city).

>The german failure to finish the "energiewende" is a political one

The sad part is that it isn't. Material science is hard and you can't just will non-existent technology into existence ... as the Germans found out. That's why Germany was signing multi-billion/multi-decade deals with Russia to import their natural gas.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#158

Post by toss1 »

est31 wrote: post #88
sendfoods wrote: post #63

Does anybody know why Germany isn't really using their domestic gas fields? According to the german EPA equivalent[1] there's enough for 10 years of usage. While I agree with the need to shut off Nordstream I, I am not sure Germany can afford this right now due to historically low gas reserves [2]. I have to disagree with the tone of the statement "We can afford the consequences". Who is "we"? The lower middle class…

Those 10 years require the use of fracking, which is I think too bad for the environment, especially for a country as densely populated as Germany. The resources that don't require fracking are only enough for 1-2 years of consumption at current levels.

Germany just today cut a NatGas deal with Qatar to reduce RUS dependence [0]. They are certainly looking, as they should.

I'd say the biggest issue with the local fields is that they are likely undeveloped, and that takes time before the oil flows. Ironically, from what I've gathered watching the US fields, the fracking wells take less time to turn on/off vs the more ordinary wells.

If Germany can turn on any local wells, especially quickly, it should help significantly, since the big issue is to buy time - time to switch to new sources of NatGas/Oil, and time to replace sinks with renewables.

Also to consider is the relative harm from some short-term drilling & fracking, vs the damage if RUS has the funds to expand their aggression into more of the EU.

[0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/20/germany-seals-gas-d...

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#159

Post by tuyguntn »

hackerfromthefu wrote: post #140
c0nducktr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not trolling, it's just not a popular opinion.

The theme of their posts seems consistent with what a russian psy-op would be. Probably a paid inciter/troll.

First of all, I am not a Russian, not paid by Russia and 100% chance I can't prove it to you that I am not a troll, so I don't care, that's clear. What I can tell you is, I don't trust USA with its politicans like

* George Bush

* Hillary Clinton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI happy for destroying a nation)

* Joe Biden (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=927i2HAgxms telling how he suggested bombing Belgrade)

* Colin Powell (famous lier, who lied to invade another country) and many more stupid politicians.

I don't trust Putin as well, but that's not main issue here, my concern is ordinary people, like you and me are dying! for what? they even don't know. Imagine you wake tomorrow with bombs are dropped in your neighborhood, would you care about what Biden or Putin is talking about? No, you will try to save your family, because they are civilians like you and me. My guess is, this war is because of geopolitical games (not my expertise, just thinking out loud), not because we deeply care about Ukrainian people or Russians, we just care about our pockets, and selfish imperialism. If they don't obey us, let the regime change!

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#160

Post by poutine »

j-pb wrote: post #47
macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

Or on batteries, or on liquid salt thermal storage upgrades for old fossil plants, or on hydro storage, or on salt cavern pneumatic pressure, or on hydrogen, or on regenerative iron dust cycles, or... The idea that it's nuclear or fossil for baseload is a false dichotomy, that ingores the dozens of intermediary storage solutions. Solar is currently the cheapest source of energy with a margin. Add storage to an overpr…

This isn't so simple.

Solar and wind are not just intermittent on a day to day basis, they are intermittent on a seasonal one -- as we saw last year the wind can not blow as strong for months at a time. Much of Europe could be blanketed with a large weather system for days cutting the sun and so forth.

Even flow batteries simply can't store enough energy, hydro storage is limited by geography and other solutions are currently niche and have yet to prove scale up. Green hydrogen probably has the most promise as a large scale storage technology that's close enough to natural gas to make workable.

Energy is so critical to our civilizations that you can't just make assertions that it'll be OK, you need to be certain. Getting it wrong can be terminal.

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