3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#61

Post by kolbusa » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #44

tuyguntn wrote: post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

instead of banning Russian oil, I would first start with banning sending weapons to Ukraine and demand 240 hours non-stop negotiations to stop the war sooner. 10 days of not leaving anywhere unless consensus has been reached

You have Russia actively trying to overtake Ukraine and yet somehow lack of military support for Ukraine should help negotiations? That seems to be true only if you want Russia to prevail. How can you force the sides to negotiate? There’s very little leverage.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#62

Post by elaus » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

weberer wrote: post #25

dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

Maybe stop shutting down all their nuclear plants? That would be a good first step.

In fact the German government also had that idea but it's not that simple. For once, you can't power the gas heaters in millions of households with electrical power. Also the plant operators would have to buy more uranium to continue operation – from Russia. So that kind of defeats the purpose.

Sure, in retrospect it would have been better to invest even more money into renewables ten or twenty years ago, and to keep the nuclear power plants running for just a few more years. But you can't change the past so that discussion really leads to nothing for the current situation.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#63

Post by sendfoods » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

Does anybody know why Germany isn't really using their domestic gas fields? According to the german EPA equivalent[1] there's enough for 10 years of usage.

While I agree with the need to shut off Nordstream I, I am not sure Germany can afford this right now due to historically low gas reserves [2].

I have to disagree with the tone of the statement "We can afford the consequences". Who is "we"? The lower middle class of Germany, who already suffers some of the highest taxes in the world and the highest energy prices in the world? The government clearly does not care about energy prices: Gas prices are nearly 50% taxed, are they willing to lower it for lower income families? No.

[1] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/service/uba-fragen/wie-gross-...

[2] https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/erdgas-ru...

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#64

Post by plandis » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

This person is a troll. For example here is one of their previous posts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30681090

“Ask HN: Ukrainians, why don’t you surrender?”

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#65

Post by grobclaw » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

motoboi wrote: post #46

I wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign. Germany cannot function without Russian gas right now. Simple there isn’t enough BTU’s. Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange. Perfectly fine and environmentally friendly nuclear power plants for dependency from Russian natural gas. Why?

You're suggesting that Russia wants Germany to stop importing gas? If so, why doesn't Russia stop selling it, like they threaten to every now and then?

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#66

Post by _vmcx » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #45

ricardo81 wrote: post #38

Maybe I'm naive but I can see why Western countries tried to get Russia on board the world capitalism gravy train. Obviously the context has changed massively in the past month, maybe even since 2014. In any event, less reliance on fossil fuels is a good thing, and at the moment, less reliance on Russian fossil fuels in the EU is probably a good thing.

Well, one assumption didn't hold: that in a more economically connected world war would be a thing of the past.

Didn't we work this one out after WW1?

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#67

Post by b112 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

To be fair here, an extra blanket on the bed, a sweater during the day, and everyone could reduce rheir homes to 12C. Massive, massive savings in gas usage... maybe enough for all!

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#68

Post by qaq » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #44

tuyguntn wrote: post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

instead of banning Russian oil, I would first start with banning sending weapons to Ukraine and demand 240 hours non-stop negotiations to stop the war sooner. 10 days of not leaving anywhere unless consensus has been reached

Consensus on we believe your nation should not exist? Ukraine already once found the consensus of give up worlds 3d largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for security guarantees. It worked out great.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#69

Post by sendfoods » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

robert_foss wrote: post #7

dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

There are gas reserves in Germany that would last for months (I've seen 6-9month figures). Maybe cut gas purchase rate to 50%. That would give >1 year of runway.

Gas reserves are at a historical low right now. I'm not sure why this misinformation keeps popping up.

https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/erdgas-ru...

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#70

Post by deeviant » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

I was previously ardently against nuclear power, and now I'm staunchly for it.

The world needs to be rid of oil, there are few other things that have caused as much human and environment suffering as oil. Hell, I even back bio fuels, as bad as they are, as long we can conclusively show they have a major impact in oil use and aren't just a subsidy handout farmers.