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3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

stopgas.org

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Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#41

Post by HWR_14 »

krona wrote: post #18

I don't know what the contract looks like; doesn't Germany have a legal obligation to pay Russia even if it were to stop LNG imports?

First, almost any contract would include a force majeure clause which allows termination due to a war (among other acts).

Failing that, the German government could just change the law to disallow the contract. Russia could ask for a binding(ish) decision from the international community, but this is one of those situations where I doubt the decision would go in their favor even if they were in the right legally.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#42

Post by yayr »

dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

interestingly, most split air conditioning units also have a heating function. Usually, they convert 1kwh of electric energy into 4-5 times the heat energy.

Heating with electricity is therefore something quite achievable and sometimes even economical. At current German electricity prices of 0,33 EUR/kwh electricity heating is currently cheaper than gas heating (currently at 0,20 EUR/kwh for new contracts - was at 0,04 before the crisis).

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#43

Post by kitkat_new »

macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

better double down on green gas

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#44

Post by tuyguntn »

tuyguntn wrote: post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

instead of banning Russian oil, I would first start with banning sending weapons to Ukraine and demand 240 hours non-stop negotiations to stop the war sooner. 10 days of not leaving anywhere unless consensus has been reached

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#45

Post by jacquesm »

ricardo81 wrote: post #38

Maybe I'm naive but I can see why Western countries tried to get Russia on board the world capitalism gravy train. Obviously the context has changed massively in the past month, maybe even since 2014. In any event, less reliance on fossil fuels is a good thing, and at the moment, less reliance on Russian fossil fuels in the EU is probably a good thing.

Well, one assumption didn't hold: that in a more economically connected world war would be a thing of the past.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#46

Post by motoboi »

I wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign.

Germany cannot function without Russian gas right now. Simple there isn’t enough BTU’s.

Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange.

Perfectly fine and environmentally friendly nuclear power plants for dependency from Russian natural gas. Why?

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#47

Post by j-pb »

macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

Or on batteries, or on liquid salt thermal storage upgrades for old fossil plants, or on hydro storage, or on salt cavern pneumatic pressure, or on hydrogen, or on regenerative iron dust cycles, or...

The idea that it's nuclear or fossil for baseload is a false dichotomy, that ingores the dozens of intermediary storage solutions.

Solar is currently the cheapest source of energy with a margin. Add storage to an overproduction system, and it's still cheaper.

The german failure to finish the "energiewende" is a political one, driven by corrupt conservative politicians and the privatized energy sector, to press as much return out of their old investments as possible.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#49

Post by aksss »

axiosgunnar wrote: post #6
dmitrygr wrote: post #3

Ok, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)

Yes. (nobody will freeze to death btw) And the reasoning is as follows: The actually morally necessary step is to establish a no-fly zone above Ukraine, enforced by force with NATO fighter jets and anti-aircraft systems. People (possibly rightfully) consider that this could lead to a WW3, possibly escalating into the usage of nuclear weapons. So far so good. So the bargain we do is basically "Ukraine, we would do eve…

I’ll try:

“Don’t trip the most obvious trigger for ww3 until all avenues for sanctions, embargoes, and boycotts have been exhausted. This obviously includes stopping gas purchases from Russia.”

But as D’s A, I would wonder where this stops. Should US be opening domestic production with gusto? Should Germany demand oil from Middle East with threats of soft and hard power? Shall they buy from Iran, Russia’s friend? Shall they embargo China, who presumably still buys fossil fuels from Russia, and every other customer of Russia?

Assume Germany’s need for gas is not elastic - they can’t simply endure with less. To what lengths shall they go to avoid Russian gas?

Once Russia is economically desperate, will ww3 be triggered anyway?

I don’t know the answers to these questions, but I do wonder about them.

Re: 3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine

#50

Post by chmod775 »

wffurr wrote: post #40
macspoofing wrote: post #17

If you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).

Storage, transmission lines, and over provisioning are also alternatives. Still blows my mind that Germany and other countries are closing nuclear facilities though.

> Still blows my mind that Germany and other countries are closing nuclear facilities though.

That's kind of a misconception. Germany isn't (and wasn't) closing any nuclear plants that weren't about to closed anyways - it was all old plants.

What Germany did was not bringing online new ones and instead choosing to invest that money elsewhere.

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