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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#151

Post by notspanishflu »

whatshisface wrote: post #11
tryingagainbro wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.

However, freedom of speech is an inalienable human right (and in need of most protection when it's political speech) - so regardless of whether you think that government's power derives from the people, they should be allowed to talk about the referendum.

Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain.

You can't say there isn't freedom of speech in Spain when even people convicted for terrorism speaks in public media everyday.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#152

Post by monodeldiablo »

tobltobs wrote: post #93

Under the assumption that for the next 10-20 years Catalonia wouldn't be allowed to join the EU, could someone of the pro separate group explain how a independent state of Catalonia is supposed to survive?

Probably just fine? Slovenia seemed to manage alright, and their economy is positively tiny.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#153

Post by monodeldiablo »

notspanishflu wrote: post #148
Oletros wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is not the secession, it is the right to vote. I'm Catalan, I'm against the independence, one reason is because I don't give a shit about being Spanish or Catalan, another is because the politicians here are exactly equally corrupts than the Spanish ones and economics ones. But what I want is the right to have a referendum and vote no. Funny thing is that if the entral government wanted to destroy th…

Sure. Just a coincidence that kind of speech 'we just want to vote', 'I'm going to say no but want to vote in this illegal referendum', I only hear it from secessionists.

There's no better way to change his vote to a definite "yes" than by refusing to allow him to voice his opinion.

If Madrid listened half as well as it sneered, I suspect they'd have better relations with all their immediate neighbors.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#154

Post by kiliancs »

notspanishflu wrote: post #103
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

It's hard to try to explain the true here when secessionists are brigading but you aren't serious, really. Since 1977, Catalans had participated in 35 free elections, and in 3 referendums. The Catalans have their own government, and there are politicians born in Catalonia successfully in the Spanish Parliament, and in the European Parliament. Where you don't see freedom? If someone wants to change the Spanish Constit…

Catalans will never amount to the number of votes you need to start such a change. This position amounts to prohibiting the exercise of the right to self-determination all peoples have.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#155

Post by notspanishflu »

farresito wrote: post #129
notspanishflu wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who? When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.

I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say, but this is what I'm referring to: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957

That's not an impartial source.

Anyway, when that site states "All peoples have the right to self-determination" Is there a minimum number of people to aim for 'this right'? V.g. if 259 persons in Els Hostalets de Balenya say the want 'the right to self-determination', are they a nation from then?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#156

Post by notspanishflu »

Oletros wrote: post #121
notspanishflu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. What people can't do is play outside the Law in a Democracy.

> There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. Changing how when the two main parties are against this change? That argument is just an excuse. Articles of the Estatut d'Autonomia where denunced by present the ruling part declared invalid by the TC but that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes it say how the situation can change.

Oh, I see, the observance of the Law is just an excuse.

If you state "that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes" you have to give us sources.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#157

Post by monodeldiablo »

kgwgk wrote: post #90
nsnick wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.

It’s not the central government rounding people up, the orders come from judges in Catalonia.

Purely out of curiosity: Who appoints those judges?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#158

Post by notspanishflu »

farresito wrote: post #134
notspanishflu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. We are not talking about corruption here; we are talking about the right of self-determination.

Yeah, and you feel so powerful downvoting everyone who doesn't aligned with your political strategy.

I bet you are all for dialog, good arguments, better talk than fight... /s

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#159

Post by notspanishflu »

collyw wrote: post #115
mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

A nice analogy I saw in the Scottish referendum was a divorce. Would it really make sense that both parties had to agree if one felt unfairly treated?

Is a nice analogy because... they were married before!

In the Spanish case, there's only one part, so a nice analogy here is body amputation.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#160

Post by somecontext »

notspanishflu wrote: post #140
severino wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least not in Spain. > mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supportin…

"I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice". But there is the right. Is in the Spanish Constitution. Article 3.

For context for those interested, Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution says the following (translated into English):

"1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it. 2. The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Autonomous Communities in accordance with their Statutes. 3. The wealth of the different language modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be the object of special respect and protection."

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