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Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

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Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#141

Post by zellyn »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #33
asaph wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you have done at his age? Would you have done your homework promptly or played video games first? Did you ever skip your homework altogether? Be honest.

Computers were primitive when I was his age, but I did have one. I never had any problems with homework. The context here is that I did not grow up in the US, and not doing one’s homework and having shitty grades was not “socially acceptable“ in the peer group. My son is not as fortunate.

Heh. I grew up in South Africa, where “didn't do your homework” was met with a choice (if you were lucky) between caning (getting hit with a thin bamboo rod) and essay-writing.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#142

Post by idrios »

erispoe wrote: post #120
idrios wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are two cherry-picked articles from a popular website[1] among users of a popular self-help reddit page for overcoming porn addiction[2]. Example of porn linked to abnormal sexual development https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517/ Example of unhealthy attitudes towards females https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38041887_Pornograph... [1a] https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ [1b] https://www.you…

Your first link is extremely prudent at drawing conclusions. it may well be that too much consumption of pornography decreases one's ability to get to the same degree of arousal in real life. But the meta-study doesn't say anything about the effects of being exposed to pornography as a teenager, and even suggests that these effects are only temporary: quit watching that much porn, and you'll do better. Your second li…

The first link is a review paper of research going on in the field and draws reasonable conclusions. It's also full of language like "A 1999 major cross-sectional study reported erectile dysfunction in 5%, and low sexual desire in 5% of sexually active men, ages 18 to 59 [3]. [...] By 2011, ED rates in young Europeans, 18–40, ranged from 14%–28% [6]." and "A 2014 study on Canadian adolescents reported that 53.5% of males aged 16–21 had symptoms indicative of a sexual problem [10]." Teenagers are absolutely covered in this paper, but it's about sexual health in general.

That's a valid argument for the second paper, and unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to address it because most papers I found are behind a paywall and I can't read them.

Regardless, it's implied that poor sexual health and attitudes supporting women violence are both detrimental effects. I also wasn't making the argument that monitoring and filtering was the solution, I was providing citations on a claim because they were requested. If you didn't like those citations, it's why I also posted [1b] and [1c], which are 24 and 25 research papers about porn being linked to poor sexual health, and porn being linked to objectifying feelings towards women, respectively.

If you want to know my opinion on the subject, it's that teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents. But I also think there are real dangers on the internet that are not obvious to children discovering it, and having a very serious conversation with your kids is a very important thing to do.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#143

Post by throwaway84742 »

rainbowmverse wrote: post #139
throwaway84742 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not what you suggested. You suggested a "proactive" approach by which I take you mean letting the kid hack on this stuff at least partly on his own. That _is_ a romanticized notion in our particular case. On his own, he quickly runs into obstacles, gets bored, and then fires up YouTube after about 5 minutes, in order to veg out. I do teach him programming, though. He also does some more with his math tutor…

I think we just had a misunderstanding. Had my parents listened to all the advice given to them about me, I'd have ended up in conversion therapy, so I do understand. When it comes to advice, some people (maybe most) just want to bloviate, not elucidate. It sounds like you are being proactive (acting in anticipation of future problems, needs, or changes). The reason I suggested Minecraft modding and video-making in p…

Sounds like we did misunderstand each other then. But still, regarding #1: in order to meaningfully, actively engage with something non-trivial like programming, it is necessary to overcome the initial learning curve. Most kids naturally have problems with that. Those problems are vastly exacerbated by having access to unlimited supply of bullshit online, which doesn't require any effort to consume. Dopamine response wins 100% of the time.

This goes back to the Suzuki method, sort of. In order for a kid to actually enjoy a complicated endeavor he/she must have some baseline set of skills to not suck at it. Acquiring it is often not a pleasant thing even for adults, with lots of effort needed to get to anywhere near where a complex activity can become "fun", and a source of enjoyment.

This is another one of those things I didn't have any problems with: I naturally started very simple and worked my way up. I was only able to do that because I didn't really have much else to do. My father threw away our TV when I was 10 years old and he never bought another one. :-)

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#144

Post by jjeaff »

sathackr wrote: post #126
neap24 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing a kid to experience consequences necessitates open dialogue with them about issues they may encounter. Sadly, many parents choose to monitor rather than discuss because it's easier. Many kids will still run into the things you state above...even with over-protective parents.

I think you have a preconception on how I interact with my stepson that is not correct. Monitoring and discussion are not mutually exclusive.

Trust but verify.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#145

Post by martin1b »

mercutio2 wrote: post #115
martin1b wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain to me why they are harmed by not seeing people having sex? Also, explain to me what benefit do they gain by seeing people having sex?

Making sex into an illicit thing, rather than just a private thing, frequently leaves teens with damaging relationships to their sexuality and others. The idea that a teen or pre-teen who’s interested isn’t finding porn through someone else’s computer is very likely mistaken. By forbidding access, you are losing your child’s trust, which likely forecloses on the opportunity to honestly and openly discuss healthy body…

So you're suggesting the solution is to encourage watching porn or others while they have sex?

How does watching others have sex enable more discussion on healthy body image? Why can't this conversation be started with images seen anywhere that have been altered?

Let's discuss the negatives. Porn is anti-woman. It turns the woman into an object. You mention 'damaging relationships' by not watching sex. It is exactly the opposite. Porn damages current and future relationships by turning the woman (or man in some cases) into an object for personal pleasure, similar to a toy. A relationship founded on using each other for personal reasons, and not mutual respect and love, will only fail, and fail painfully. Not to mention any 'baggage' such as STDs, pregnancies, etc.

These are the mistakes are what we aim to prevent our children from making until they reach a point of maturity to where they can reliably prevent them on their own.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#146

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

sathackr wrote: post #138
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trust. But verify. Give it as a gift. But sell it. AKA, you are contradicting yourself. > We started monitoring his internet after we caught him looking at inappropriate videos on youtube. Yeah, that's a great move. You are uncomfortable with something, so you limit his freedom to perceive it. That's going to lead to a great relationship where he will trust you with real problems in the future. > Neither of us like…

FWIW I did not downvote you. I welcome criticism as it often helps adjust perceptions and behaviors. It has nothing to do with what I'm comfortable with him seeing. As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has…

> As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them.

So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world?

> Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not.

And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they value and why and forcing them to adopt your values.

> But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework

Actually, no, and that approach to understanding interactions with the world is toxic, as it is essentially learning to submit to authority, rather than learning to live as a citizen in a society among equals who share a space.

Rules and consequences should be the last line of defence for a society as far as preventing anti-social behaviour is concerned, not something that teaches you how to live. You learn to live by understanding how fairness works, how reciprocity works, how cooperation helps everyone achieve more, essentially by understanding how to make society work. Because that is the only way a citizen in a democratic society can be expected to participate in defining the rules and consequences that then are enforced as a last line of defence against the minority who would otherwise ruin it for everyone. In a democracy, the citizens have to make the rules. You cannot make the rules by following the rules.

Following rules is not a virtue. Behaving in a way that is in accordance with a possibly hypothetical fair and balanced set of rules is. But you can't learn that by being forced to obey a rule that you don't see as fair or balanced.

> You've made an assumption that the issue here is my problem with being uncomfortable with something, which I feel is not an accurate assumption. The rest of your argument is based on that assumption.

Well, yeah, it is somewhat of an assumption, but it still seems likely to me.

I mean, what is the value that you are trying to get your child to accept by limiting what he can look at on the internet, and is there anything besides porn that you try to prevent him from accessing?

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#147

Post by moate »

Zak wrote: post #130
moate wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand why parental controls exist (8 year-olds think that butts are funny, but I really do not want them searching for butts on the internet) but treating teenagers like stupid babies is...stupid. We, the people on HN, represent a uniquely tech-savy segment of the population, and can (probably? usually?) say that we're better with software than our kids so we actually COULD put restrictions in place that they…

It seems to me that parental controls might be useful for preventing young kids from encountering content they're not ready to handle by accident , but become useless at the point where the child actively wants to bypass them.

100% this.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#148

Post by sathackr »

sathackr wrote: post #138
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trust. But verify. Give it as a gift. But sell it. AKA, you are contradicting yourself. > We started monitoring his internet after we caught him looking at inappropriate videos on youtube. Yeah, that's a great move. You are uncomfortable with something, so you limit his freedom to perceive it. That's going to lead to a great relationship where he will trust you with real problems in the future. > Neither of us like…

FWIW I did not downvote you. I welcome criticism as it often helps adjust perceptions and behaviors. It has nothing to do with what I'm comfortable with him seeing. As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has…

delete because I meant to reply to sibling, not parent

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#149

Post by sathackr »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #146
sathackr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I did not downvote you. I welcome criticism as it often helps adjust perceptions and behaviors. It has nothing to do with what I'm comfortable with him seeing. As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has…

> As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? > Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they val…

> > As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. > So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? I only prevent him from perceiving what I feel is the most harmful parts of the world to an undeveloped mind. I solicit his input, and my reliance on that will increase as his maturity does. I wouldn't ask a 3 year old if they felt they should watch porn. But have asked my 12 year old that. And them for him to explain his answer.

>> Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not.

>And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they value and why and forcing them to adopt your values.

Agreed. One the many fine lines a good parent has to toe.

> > But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework

> Actually, no, and that approach to understanding interactions with the world is toxic, as it is essentially learning to submit to authority, rather than learning to live as a citizen in a society among equals who share a space.

A valid point, but only if my execution was in a manner to be repressive or authoritarian. I don't use the 'my house, my rules' approach. I use the 'lets sit down and discuss this' approach. When he was younger I would always kneel down so that we were at eye-level with each other.

Mutual respect should be the driving principal for all behavior. I teach the 'Platinum rule' -- Treat others the way they want to be treated.

I mostly agree with the rest of the post. To answer your last question: "...is there anything besides porn that you try to prevent him from accessing?" -- Sites tagged by Sophos as VPN, proxy, ad networks, and malware. VPN and proxy as they can make the porn filter ineffective. Ad networks and malware just for the general protection of the devices.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#150

Post by mercutio2 »

martin1b wrote: post #145
mercutio2 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making sex into an illicit thing, rather than just a private thing, frequently leaves teens with damaging relationships to their sexuality and others. The idea that a teen or pre-teen who’s interested isn’t finding porn through someone else’s computer is very likely mistaken. By forbidding access, you are losing your child’s trust, which likely forecloses on the opportunity to honestly and openly discuss healthy body…

So you're suggesting the solution is to encourage watching porn or others while they have sex? How does watching others have sex enable more discussion on healthy body image? Why can't this conversation be started with images seen anywhere that have been altered? Let's discuss the negatives. Porn is anti-woman. It turns the woman into an object. You mention 'damaging relationships' by not watching sex. It is exactly…

I am certainly not suggesting that you push porn on your child.

Rather, you seem to be suggesting you have to prevent your child from watching porn. I am suggesting forbidding porn, in private, is very likely to be counterproductive, because it is unlikely to succeed, it makes a reasonable human desire into something illicit, and is likely to instead result in a loss of trust + cause porn to be seen as forbidden (and thus attractive) fruit.

Separately, I am suggesting that when a child is interested in porn, that’s an opportunity for a conversation about the problematic aspects of porn, respect, and fantasy vs. reality. Loss of trust makes that conversation less likely to be accessible, or at least less likely for that conversation to involve your child actually listening to you.

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