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Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

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131–140 of 192 posts

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#131
post #118

I have to admit I was frightened when I heard of hikikomori. I am not Japanese, but I have a tendency for staying at home, sometimes for as much as a couple or three days. I thought I might be or end up like them. I have what you would call a successfull full-time job as a programmer and my tendency for staying home was so that I could hack on things I wanted. The pressure however to try and stay ahead of the curve h…

The challenge seems to be in finding or creating friendship circles with similar or compatible values/outlook. In a busy fragmented society, you have to work in a deliberate and persistent way at that. I've concluded that a key thing to do is to pursue my passions and find IRL communities that share them.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#132
post #117

This is a personal anecdote, but it happened last week seems relevant-ish: My landlord is a hikikomori. He is around 50-60 years old, and refuses to leave his room in his house; he instead barks orders at his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). She is a very kind old woman. I was shocked that he sent her to collect water money (we pay to our…

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

I'm 23, so that observation is spot on :-)

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#133
The trigger for a boy retreating to his bedroom might be comparatively slight - poor grades or a broken heart, for example - but the withdrawal itself can become a source of trauma. And powerful social forces can conspire to keep him there.

My observation is that mental illness often has a hurricane-like property wherein the storm is bearable but the social fallout (looting, arson, opportunistic crime) afterward is far more destructive. The disease itself is unpleasant but bearable. People are not.

In a high-stress society like corporate life in the U.S. or Japan, everyone will have deviances from perfect mental function. One would wish for them to have negative autocorrelation (self-correction). Instead, those deviations are often pushed further by external forces. Sometimes it's intentional (ambitious rivals want to thin out competition) but normally it's just an artifact of the stupid stigmas around these diseases. ("He's depressed, not a team player.")

People really don't understand these problems. They think a "panic attack" is that time they hit a heart rate of 120 because they drank too much caffeine before a deadline. No, that's not panic (that's mild anxiety). Panic attacks throw about 50 different symptoms (you have to have a few before you see them all) of which any one of them would feel like an acute, life-threatening crisis to a sane person. Almost everyone who has a true panic attack will end up in the ER, the first time. You have to cycle through all of the bizarre symptoms a few times before you realize that the attacks aren't dangerous. Once you've learned this, they're just annoying ("shit, there goes the next 10 minutes") but the first few attacks are devastating because they feel real.

I also think that the corporate world creates laziness and depression, not in the blase Dilbert sense, but because people who are conditioned to associate work with subordination turn either into disengaged clock-punchers (steal from the system, because it will steal from you) or useless, delegating executives. We think our society values work, but given the increasing association between work and subordination, isn't that indicative of the opposite?

Society effectively programs people to lose motivation and shut down, then stigmatizes people who do so-- whether because of conditioning or an unrelated biological problem-- even if it's only for a week or two. I think the "test" of the dues-paying grunt work is whether a person can keep going in spite of recurring negative signals (subordination, artificially delayed advancement, repetitive busy-work without the leeway to automate it or render it unnecessary) but the truth is that that's a stupid fucking test.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#134
post #27

If I had the money I would probably stay at home all the time as well. I have no problem socializing and doing stuff. It's just that I prefer being home.

Not that I disagree with "It's just that I prefer being home.", but in my own experience, thinking what are the things that every human being should do, I get to a few points : * reproduce in a healthy manner ( have healthy and well supported children ) * socialize with real people ( we got facial emotions and beautiful speaking capabilities that mammals use for this ) * sport ( the other way around is unhealthy, sin…

I don't know about harsh, and I hope you don't meant to come across like this, but the idea that I should have children, and that if I don't want to that there's a problem; that there's something wrong with me; is deeply threatening. It's an ideology with real world consequences too - When I was 20 doctors refused to give me an IUD using very similar reasoning, despite hormonal contraceptives turning me into a totally crazy bitch.

I know other women with very similar stories too. Being the potential fixee for someone's idea that people need fixing, especially when society puts you in a position where you're vulnerable, is not fun.

This sounds almost like I'm having a go at you, which isn't how I want it to come across. I'm reasonably sure that it was well meant advice. But when you start prescribing life choices to people, rather than just talking about things that might happen, it can result in a vastly more aggressive tone than you might have meant there to be.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#135
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's going on in Japan is a bit more severe than the western world's version. It came to a point where videos like these were made - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSq0XOHxJsQ Note the top comment made 4 years ago. While depression definitely exists globally, I don't think I've heard of videos like these being made for any place other than Japan. If I'm wrong though, please correct me.

I find this version better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A12dH72757U Don't know what she say but I was paying attention :).

She says, 「零れてるよ」 (kobore teru yo) at the end. Which means, "It's spilling."

It's used as you'd expect: to let somebody know if a sink is overflowing or if a bag tears open and things are falling out.

In the context of the video... I have no fucking clue.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#136
I noticed a gender focus : why are so many Japanese MEN refusing to leave their rooms?

I found a research report on the topic which basically seems to say that Hikikomori women are probably labeled as "Parasite Singles" rather than Hikikomori, but if the two sets of youth were considered as one, the distribution by gender would be closer to 50:50 rather than the impression that the media serves to give that is is almost always a man : http://towakudai.blogs.com/Hikikomori_as_Gendered_Issue.pdf

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#137
post #4

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

"hide... ...in dual 2560x1600 monitors"

Oh, yes, computers can make people look so busy when really they spend all day what I am doing now.

I'm off to the shop to get the tea

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#138

This is a personal anecdote, but it happened last week seems relevant-ish: My landlord is a hikikomori. He is around 50-60 years old, and refuses to leave his room in his house; he instead barks orders at his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). She is a very kind old woman. I was shocked that he sent her to collect water money (we pay to our…

The first wave of young new graduates having problems finding work hit in the early to mid 90's, when the Japanese bubble crashed. The new grads for the rest of the 90s were called "the lost generation", with many of them never being able to find full time work. (the period was also called "The First Employment Ice Age") That was roughly 20 years ago. This massive wave of underemployed, often-unmarried folks are now…

"hit in the early to mid 90's"

So did the internet. You couldn't be a hikikomori before then... you were simply a recluse. That was a psychological condition reserved for the 'crazy old...'

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#139
post #84

It's a bit hurtful that they would say "teenage laziness," when it could be depression. It started when I was 12 (probably). I slowly started losing interest in doing things that I enjoyed, even more so about the things I didn't enjoy doing. By the time I was 15 I stopped caring about my future and from a straight A student I became a C/D student. When I started high school that I wanted (we have similar requirements…

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

> I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything.

In response to sibling comments, I want to QFT this. Laziness, as a diagnosis, has no explanatory power. It's a useless descriptor. It doesn't tell you how to fix it. You can self-diagnose as lazy all you like: that's, wait for it, intellectual laziness.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#140
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not mutually exclusive. I was ADHD diagnosed, but I'm also lazy. Even medication didn't make me less lazy. But then I became a Haskell programmer, and now "laziness is a virtue." edit: Not making light of ADHD or my own struggles. Medication and self-awareness helped me improve from a B/C student into an A student. But I do find that as an adult I'm able to function without medication because instead of const…

This comment is great. Was the first thing I read today. I believe I am going to go write some haskell to start my day haha

How could the third comment down in a thread be the first thing you read today?
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