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Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

bbc.co.uk

121–130 of 192 posts

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#121
post #117

This is a personal anecdote, but it happened last week seems relevant-ish: My landlord is a hikikomori. He is around 50-60 years old, and refuses to leave his room in his house; he instead barks orders at his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). She is a very kind old woman. I was shocked that he sent her to collect water money (we pay to our…

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

80 is the new 60 basically.

Tangent: people think life extension will magically materialize with some singularity type event, but in reality it's a slow creeping thing. The single most powerful life extension technology ever developed is the cardiac bypass, for example.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#122
I am ignorant of the deep aspects of Japanese culture, but my suspicion is that it's a high-pressure society that uses shame heavily in the false belief that shame is a motivator. In reality excessive shame generally produces withdrawal, demotivation, and depression.

Combine this with the demographics -- it's very hard for young people to work their way up in an elder-dominated culture -- and you have a recipe for irrational expectations followed by shame and withdrawal.

That's my outsider suspicion.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#123
post #88
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be surprised by how cheap it is to do. You could retire forever on even just $100,000.

Care to elaborate? I presume this figure does not assume you have a spouse or children to support.

Correct. It does not account for spouse or children.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#124
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. NHK shows the psychological feelings as more akin to hallucinations, and there isn't really an exploration into the disease. It's more just a story of a happy (but unlikely) sudden recovery.

One of its central points is that NEETs are often supported by their parents, and once this (financial) support is removed, they are forced to recover. I can't really agree with that, as it's a psychological problem.

This was juiciest episode in the series. I couldn't help but smile when the financial support was withdrawn.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#125
post #4

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

I think what makes hikikomori unusual (and the pattern is certainly spreading beyond Japan, into Europe post-2008 as well) is that it doesn't fit the traditional shut-in pattern.

Being a shut-in is nothing new, but most of those are either very old people (who are shut in for partially physical reasons) or people with severe agoraphobia (who can't leave their houses without having panic attacks) or biologically-rooted mental illnesses.

What's happening now in many countries is that people without anything physically wrong with them are becoming shut-ins at very early ages-- 20s instead of 80s.

I feel like corporatism is cultural alcohol (alcohol was more devastating to Native Americans than Europeans, who built up a tolerance over millennia) whose psychological effects are probably somewhat worse in East Asia. Corporatism is everywhere, but when it fails us in the U.S., we don't internalize it. Compared to people in Japan or Korea, we laugh it off, work odd jobs, take a couple night courses, and maybe move to another part of the country. We're used to the industrial-corporate economy melting down every couple of generations (1929, 1973, 2008) and we know that it can be awful, but we don't take it personally. We'd rather pull up stakes and move across the country. In East Asia, there seems to be much more shame to not finding a place in the salaryman system.

Hikikomori is the response, on a large scale, to the decline of a system (world corporatism, which reached peak employment in 2008) in a world where the resulting negative impacts are internalized and personalized to a much larger degree than here.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#128
post #117

This is a personal anecdote, but it happened last week seems relevant-ish: My landlord is a hikikomori. He is around 50-60 years old, and refuses to leave his room in his house; he instead barks orders at his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). She is a very kind old woman. I was shocked that he sent her to collect water money (we pay to our…

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

80 is still above life expectancy by Western industrialized countries standard. It's also an age where if for some reason you are hospitalized (whether it's because of "natural" diseases for old age or because you broke a limb), chances are you will need heavy care for the rest of your life.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#129
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this friend who manages to do just the opposite. He complains that his life sucks, that he needs a job and that he's lonely and wishes he'd meet someone. This of course has the adverse effect on people: it makes them keep their distance because you're "anti-social" or a "downer". Pretty creepy to realize that your whole life can be affected so much by what you see of the world... and what the world sees of you…

Yeah, overshare can work both ways. All your friends are either having a fantastic time, or their life is ruined. Both can be a bit depressing to watch.

All your friends are either having a fantastic time, or their life is ruined. Both can be a bit depressing to watch.

If you find it depressing that they're having a "fantastic time", then they aren't your friends in any meaningful sense.

This isn't directed at you. Envy is a stigmatized but natural human emotion. (I rarely feel direct envy, but who doesn't second-guess the path they've taken? It's very easy to look for greener grass and say, "Man, I could be a Director now instead of a 3-failed-startup wash-out", never mind that the other person is Director of a failing, bland company.) Everyone gets down when they see other people having easy, seemingly unearned success-- and oversharers tend to be the hypersocial people who make their successes look even more unearned (it being better, in their view, to be well-liked and socially successful than talented or hard-working).

My point, rather, is that if these people's successes get you down, they aren't friends in any meaningful sense. And social network "friendship" is anything but in many cases, since many people are trying to incite envy to validate their own choices and results.

Most of my real friends I never check on Facebook.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#130
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

They're not mutually exclusive. I was ADHD diagnosed, but I'm also lazy. Even medication didn't make me less lazy. But then I became a Haskell programmer, and now "laziness is a virtue." edit: Not making light of ADHD or my own struggles. Medication and self-awareness helped me improve from a B/C student into an A student. But I do find that as an adult I'm able to function without medication because instead of const…

This comment is great. Was the first thing I read today. I believe I am going to go write some haskell to start my day haha
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