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Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#101

Post by laumars »

martincmartin wrote: post #98
spoiler wrote: post #84

It's a bit hurtful that they would say "teenage laziness," when it could be depression. It started when I was 12 (probably). I slowly started losing interest in doing things that I enjoyed, even more so about the things I didn't enjoy doing. By the time I was 15 I stopped caring about my future and from a straight A student I became a C/D student. When I started high school that I wanted (we have similar requirements…

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

You definitely do get some kids that are lazy though. And I know this because I was one of them. I should have made more of an effort at school, but instead I coasted on natural ability. Which has meant that I'd had to put double the effort in later life to make up for the advantage I should have given myself at school.

However I do agree with you that we shouldn't be branding kids as "lazy" without investigation first.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#102

Post by wisty »

WhoIsSatoshi wrote: post #93
wisty wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't help that a lot of people only post good stuff to Facebook. "Pictures of wife and I celebrating our anniversary!". They don't then say "We both screamed at each other for 3 hours, just after the photo was taken."

I have this friend who manages to do just the opposite. He complains that his life sucks, that he needs a job and that he's lonely and wishes he'd meet someone. This of course has the adverse effect on people: it makes them keep their distance because you're "anti-social" or a "downer". Pretty creepy to realize that your whole life can be affected so much by what you see of the world... and what the world sees of you…

Yeah, overshare can work both ways. All your friends are either having a fantastic time, or their life is ruined. Both can be a bit depressing to watch.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#103

Post by precisioncoder »

drinchev wrote: post #59
Kiro wrote: post #27

If I had the money I would probably stay at home all the time as well. I have no problem socializing and doing stuff. It's just that I prefer being home.

Not that I disagree with "It's just that I prefer being home.", but in my own experience, thinking what are the things that every human being should do, I get to a few points : * reproduce in a healthy manner ( have healthy and well supported children ) * socialize with real people ( we got facial emotions and beautiful speaking capabilities that mammals use for this ) * sport ( the other way around is unhealthy, sin…

I would disagree with items 1, 2, and 3 on your list. Here's my list of things everyone should do:

- Pursue your personal goals with strength and conviction

- Find out what social environment makes you happy (It's ok if it's none) and find a way to build it

- Stay healthy in body and mind in a way that is enjoyable or at least tolerable for you

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#104

Post by rjh29 »

casual_slacker wrote: post #31
ekianjo wrote: post #10

There's a good anime/manga about the subject, called "Welcome to NHK" (NHK = Nihon Hikkikomori, not the TV station with the same name). It captures the situation pretty well.

I disagree. NHK shows the psychological feelings as more akin to hallucinations, and there isn't really an exploration into the disease. It's more just a story of a happy (but unlikely) sudden recovery.

One of its central points is that NEETs are often supported by their parents, and once this (financial) support is removed, they are forced to recover. I can't really agree with that, as it's a psychological problem.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#106

Post by ghc »

martincmartin wrote: post #98
spoiler wrote: post #84

It's a bit hurtful that they would say "teenage laziness," when it could be depression. It started when I was 12 (probably). I slowly started losing interest in doing things that I enjoyed, even more so about the things I didn't enjoy doing. By the time I was 15 I stopped caring about my future and from a straight A student I became a C/D student. When I started high school that I wanted (we have similar requirements…

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

They're not mutually exclusive. I was ADHD diagnosed, but I'm also lazy. Even medication didn't make me less lazy. But then I became a Haskell programmer, and now "laziness is a virtue."

edit: Not making light of ADHD or my own struggles. Medication and self-awareness helped me improve from a B/C student into an A student. But I do find that as an adult I'm able to function without medication because instead of constant studying for tests I'm constantly learning and applying my knowledge.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#108

Post by sneak »

dvdkhlng wrote: post #54
jayfuerstenberg wrote: post #5

Japanese society and education can be very demanding of young people. I live in Japan and have never seen so much brainwashing on the topic of the unemployed or uneducated. Besides the term hikikomori there is also NEET (Not Employed, Educated or in Training). Another shocking thing is whenever an upstanding pillar of the community is shown on TV they go out of their way to mention he is a "正社員", a full time employee…

I've always been startled by the word 社会人 which literally means "member of society" but AFAICS is used by people when describing themselves conveying the meaning of "I'm a full-time employee" (as opposed to student, part-time jobber etc.). The implication being that people who're not working full-time are not considered do be part of society?

Compare and contrast HN, where anyone who doesn't own a significant chunk of the company that employs them is looked down upon.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#109

Post by pessimizer »

brigade wrote: post #45
omegant wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they don't really know how to act about it. After all (and I am just guessing here) tradition doesn't teach how to help this people.

I don't think any culture really teaches how to help shut-ins, at least once it becomes a legitimate mental health issue. In the western world, however, parents will very quickly make their newly reclusive child's life miserable (taking away TV, games, computers, etc.), and even kick adult children to the curb if they refuse to support themselves. And because this is done almost from the start, most kids aren't yet s…

I think that's a bit of confirmation bias. Most healthy people who start becoming shut-ins get a bunch of chaotic interventions and ultimatums from family, so most of the people that you know of that ended up doing better after being shut-ins did so after a bunch of interventions.

I feel that I've been like this at many times in my life, and it was only when people left me alone and just helped me by actually helping me that I got better. Sometimes I just need people to make sure that I eat, that I don't worry too much, and that I feel that there's a reason not to sleep all day. That people think that the only constructive help is an attacking kind of help, a kind of forceful removal of all supports to make the boat choose to float or sink, I think is a weird cultural thing.

What if the boat has a hole in it? You might want to work on repairing that hole before removing the supports. It's telling that the usual metaphor for describing the ultimatum being given by the people who practice these aggressive interventions is "Sink or Swim." Don't be either too lazy to swim or too stupid to figure out how to swim. A boat with a hole in it, you coddle and fix. You can't incentivize a boat to be fixed, you fix it. Would you torture the flu out of people? Give people enough motivation by torture that they would force their immune system to attack the flu that much harder?

Middle class people used to be sent to sanitariums when they locked themselves in rooms and stopped bathing - to rest out in a peaceful environment, in some fresh mountain/desert/forest air. Working people got sent to sanatoriums with cinder-block walls, and only after they actually fell physically sick. Has our society gotten productive and wealthy enough that we can bring back sanitariums?

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#110

Post by MattDL »

martincmartin wrote: post #98
spoiler wrote: post #84

It's a bit hurtful that they would say "teenage laziness," when it could be depression. It started when I was 12 (probably). I slowly started losing interest in doing things that I enjoyed, even more so about the things I didn't enjoy doing. By the time I was 15 I stopped caring about my future and from a straight A student I became a C/D student. When I started high school that I wanted (we have similar requirements…

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

Trust me, laziness is a real thing; even when everything in the world points towards doing the work being the best thing for you, you just can't be bothered.
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