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In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

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Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#131

Post by Miner49er »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #119
dymk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh sorry, they actually can do something; in fact they've caught-and-released this guy three times before finally saying "Maybe he is dangerous": https://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charge-Man-att... But I'm not holding my breath for them to actually put him away, given their past decisions to not separate him from the public.

From that article: > Charges for the first three assaults were dismissed by the City of Seattle because of mental health concerns, prosecutors said in the charging papers. Jesus, WTF? If he is attacking people because of mental illness, why isn't he locked up in a mental hospital? "Sorry, you attacked people but you're crazy, so have a nice day!" And why is trying to throw someone off an overpass charged with assault…

I don't think they have any mental hospitals to put him in. Locking people up in mental hospitals isn't much of a thing anymore.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#132

Post by m0zg »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #73
malandrew wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and shame everyone who dares to complain. And then watch at they turn on you by quietly voting for your opponents in greater and greater numbers as the problem worsens.

... or fleeing to suburbs...

Not to worry: WA senator Manka Dhingra has been promising to bring injection sites to the suburbs as well.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#133

Post by redisman »

drcode wrote: post #111
thomascgalvin wrote: post #8

> In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs. It is relying less on the criminal justice toolbox to deal with hard drugs and more on the public health toolbox. America's puritanical urges result in more self-harm than anything else. So much of the way our nation is structured is based on some ancient idea that you have to live clean and work hard in order to get to heaven. That is combined with a sen…

If you think there is more drug-related crime and public heroin injections in "puritan" US cities like Seattle vs European cities like Frankfurt or Amsterdam... you must not travel very much.

What are the Pioneer Square and "3rd and pike" of Frankfurt or Amsterdam?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#134

Post by seanmcdirmid »

nikanj wrote: post #38
just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.

Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver are remarkably similar in their problems and approaches to solutions. It really feels like a PNW/BC cultural thing.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#135

Post by m0zg »

psychometry wrote: post #19
just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

Supervised consumption sites would go a long way toward fixing the needle problem.

Observation to the contrary: availability of toilets does not fix "shitting on the streets" problem in SF.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#136

Post by sukilot »

notus wrote: post #121
awakeasleep wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing first is effective for people who want our idea of a 'normal lifestyle' I think people in this thread are asking you to question your assumption- do you think every drug addict on the west coast wants to hold down a job and live our normal life?

People don't want to be drug addicts and live a poor existence to feed a habit. They have problems, they use the drugs to medicate or fit in, the problems compound with drug use, so they use more to deal with the problems more. They are also ostracized by communities which nobody likes as we are social creatures. The level of that social exclusion probably depends a lot on their current level of wealth. People like h…

> People don't want to be drug addicts and live a poor existence to feed a habit.

Non-addicts don't. Addicts do. Addictive people are stuck in the middle oscillating.

Free will + mind-altering drugs is a fundamentally hard problem.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#137

Post by opportune »

tjr225 wrote: post #26
taurath wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any statistics to back that up (violence rate)? I don’t feel like anecdotes make for good conversation here.

Yeah I mean, without statistics his anecdotes are meaningless. It's a common thing to complain here in Seattle, but having lived in the Midwest for most of my life I know what true violence looks like and feels like. I don't hear guns every night like I did in KC. There aren't 600 murders a year like in Chicago. I'm not saying Seattle is perfect but I've never felt safer. And I live in the Central District, which is…

I agree, when I lived in Seattle it was just... normal. There are more homeless people than in most other places but by and large there were no issues I ran into. I saw needles a couple times and was harassed by someone who was almost certainly schizophrenic, but that happens in all medium-large cities.

Although I never experienced it and don't know many people who have, I will say that property crimes need to be prosecuted. The only common case I've really heard of is getting bikes stolen (which, again, happens pretty much everywhere) and I assume there is probably some shoplifting too. That's not really even that bad either, and again is par for the course in major cities, but it definitely should be prosecuted when possible.

I agree that a lot of people are simply bothered by having to walk past homeless people and don't want to see or think about them, ever. It's just not really an issue that will affect you very often, on average.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#138

Post by ORioN63 »

dymk wrote: post #54
mieseratte wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He keeps failing at doing so, and the cops say "Can't do anything, he hasn't actually thrown somebody off". How does that play out such that they can't get him on some type of assault / harassment? Is he politely asking these women if they would like to be thrown off the overpass and politely walking off when they demur?

Oh sorry, they actually can do something; in fact they've caught-and-released this guy three times before finally saying "Maybe he is dangerous": https://www.seattlepi.com/local/crime/article/Charge-Man-att... But I'm not holding my breath for them to actually put him away, given their past decisions to not separate him from the public.

Hm, I think it's the first time I see a "451 Unavailable For Legal Reasons" in the wild.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#139

Post by djsumdog »

There is a lot going on in these comments. I feels like I've stepped back into /r/seattle (where redditors of Seattle seem to just hate all homeless people).

There is a lot going on here. First, there are a lot of homeless. Housing is sky rocketing and many people cannot afford to live anywhere close to where they can find work. The tech community there basically waves there hands and just says, "You can't afford to live here as a barista, well then you just gotta do the 1~2 hour bus/car commute in order to make me coffee. Sucks to be you."

Many of the other issues people are listing, aren't about drugs. They are about the homeless.

Second, people are talking about the other petty crime that goes with drugs: people stealing to get money for drugs. Violent crime and theft certainly don't need to be normalized. Chicago's recent DA's office has been criticized of not being hard enough on kids who commit crimes; which leads to more things like carjackings and even more violent stuff (knowing they might not face charges). That's a different issue -- although tangentially related and can't be ignored.

Portugal is a great example of a country where they try real treatment and help for people struggling with addiction. It's a better example of what happens with these policies long term. From what I've read and heard, it's mostly positive.

I personally knew people in my home town who stood in line at 5am on Mondays to get their methadone for the week. Treatment programs/rehab are for the rich -- often costing $2k ~ $5k out of pocket. Movie stars go to treatment. There need to be more treatment options that are affordable for those most in need of them. Drug treaming in America is just as shameful as the rest of our totally broken health care system.

https://fightthefuture.org/article/returning-to-america-and-...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#140

Post by throwawaysea »

Yea the ubiquitous property crime, tents on public land/parks, needles on streets/greenspaces/tossed on our lawn, ... Seattle has DEFINITELY figured it out. Is this article satire? Because it seems totally disconnected from reality on the ground in Seattle. This was a beautiful city that is being ruined by progressive policy/selective law enforcement, and it is riding on the coattails of a strong local economy. Right now we are on the fast track to becoming just as trashed up as SF.
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