Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 501 posts

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#71

Post by coliveira »

tjr225 wrote: post #26
taurath wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any statistics to back that up (violence rate)? I don’t feel like anecdotes make for good conversation here.

Yeah I mean, without statistics his anecdotes are meaningless. It's a common thing to complain here in Seattle, but having lived in the Midwest for most of my life I know what true violence looks like and feels like. I don't hear guns every night like I did in KC. There aren't 600 murders a year like in Chicago. I'm not saying Seattle is perfect but I've never felt safer. And I live in the Central District, which is…

[flagged]

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#72

Post by notus »

dymk wrote: post #7

I am just astounded that this is being spun in such a positive light. It absolutely has had a negative impact on public safety here. They're offered public services, and they refuse them, because many of our "tiny villages" have no-drug-use policies, which they will not abide by. My city has one of the worst problems with repeat violent drug addicts in the nation (perhaps aside from the Bay) and yet we refuse to jail…

Solving community problems come with community sacrifices. I'm a big proponent of housing first, drug rehab second. It is exponentially harder to get clean without housing and a support network. Decriminalizing drug addiction is a good step in that direction IMO. I think another side of this coin though is we need to bring back institutionalization of mental health care. Implemented today it would be vastly different from the 80's and before because our understanding of therapy has gone from stirring up and injecting memories into people to cognitive behavioral therapy which is very much a feel good form of therapy. I question your statement about the guy on the 1-5 ramp attempting to throw small women off the overpass. How is attempted defined here? Does he grab them? If so he would definitely be arrested for battery charges. I get the impression he is probably chasing them and saying he is going to do it. That seems like a legitimate reason to get someone mental health help but not a legitimate reason to incarcerate someone. As long as we have this gaping hole in our system that just ignores mental health problems or tries to categorize them as criminal we will continue to have this problem.

Source on housing first being effective: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.94.4...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#73

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

malandrew wrote: post #55
nikanj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.

> and shame everyone who dares to complain. And then watch at they turn on you by quietly voting for your opponents in greater and greater numbers as the problem worsens.

... or fleeing to suburbs...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#74

Post by dymk »

taurath wrote: post #14
dymk wrote: post #7

I am just astounded that this is being spun in such a positive light. It absolutely has had a negative impact on public safety here. They're offered public services, and they refuse them, because many of our "tiny villages" have no-drug-use policies, which they will not abide by. My city has one of the worst problems with repeat violent drug addicts in the nation (perhaps aside from the Bay) and yet we refuse to jail…

Do you have any statistics to back that up (violence rate)? I don’t feel like anecdotes make for good conversation here.

Do you need statistics to tell you that it's wrong to not prosecute violent repeat offenders?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#75

Post by dcolkitt »

I fully support legalizing all drugs, but don't understand why the latest wave of criminal justice reform tolerates property crimes. Crimes like smash and grabs, purse snatching, bike thefts, vandalism, littering, and shoplifting clearly have defined victims and lower the quality of life for everyone.

It's perfectly possible to be a heroin addict and an upstanding citizen at the same time. The same cannot be said of a bike thief. The vast majority of even hardcore homeless drug addicts do not engage in malicious property crimes. It's only a small fraction, that also tends to be the most violent and socially pathological.

Vigorous enforcement of property crime improves the life for everyone in the city. Doubly so for the otherwise law-abiding drug users, who most often bear the worse brunt of the anti-social property criminals. The best way to sell drug policy reform to law and order conservatives is to redirect those resources to non-victimless crimes. Not just throw your hands up in the air and give up on enforcing any laws whatsoever.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#76

Post by cabaalis »

I'm not a statistical expert. Can someone who is comment on how the population selection exclusions described below may or may not effect the results?

> This evaluation included 318 adults who were suspected of recent violations of the uniform controlled substances act (VUCSA) and/or prostitution offenses and were deemed eligible for LEAD by arresting officers. Individuals were ineligible for participation if any of the following exclusion criteria applied: a) the amount of drugs involved exceeded 3 g (all drug classes were eligible); b) the suspected drug activity involved delivery or possession with intent to deliver and there was reason to believe the suspect was dealing for profit above a subsistence income; c) the individual did not appear amenable to diversion; d) the individual appeared to exploit minors or others in a drug dealing enterprise; e) the individual was suspected of promoting prostitution; f) the individual had a disqualifying criminal history (i.e.,conviction for murder 1 or 2, arson 1 or 2, robbery 1, assault 1,kidnapping, Violation of the Uniform Firearms Act 1, sex offense, or attempt of any of these crimes); g) within the past 10 years, the individual was convicted on a domestic violence offense, robbery 2,assault 2 or 3, burglary 1 or 2, or Violation of the Uniform Firearms Act2;or h) the individual was already involved in King County Drug Diversion Court or Mental Health Court.

Source: https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/6f124f_f4eed992eaff402f88ddb4...

From a layman's perspective, my question is would the exclusions shown above favor inclusion of people less likely of recidivism?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#77

Post by notadoc »

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

It's certainly not just Seattle either, the large-scale homeless/junky situation describes basically every west coast city.

There's obviously a much deeper problem.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#78

Post by nostromo »

empath75 wrote: post #39
nostromo wrote: post #15

... this is probably news to people actually living in Seattle. (Edit: the title was originally, "Seattle Has Figured Out How to End the War on Drugs") A place where meth heads attack people with pitchforks in the street a few days after being released from prison on a suspended sentence. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/man-accused-... Not to mention our random piles of used syringes, which are often…

When people say things like this, I do have to wonder if they've ever lived in a city before. Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. There is just a certain amount of crime and drug use that will always exist in the big city. No amount of 'tough on crime' policing will make it go away.

"It's better now than it was during the worst crime wave in American history -- the 1980s."

You're not wrong, but you're also not setting a very high bar.

I think it's important that cities be safe, livable places. Seattle still is, for the most part. But ask some of your younger, single female friends where they will and will not go at night, and you may be surprised that it includes a large number of neighborhoods.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#79

Post by allana »

rdtwo wrote: post #53
allana wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet "Moms for Seattle" can't be bothered to take a real photo of homelessness affecting Seattle's parks :c Those advocating for harsher handling of homelessness in Seattle have repeatedly shown themselves to be incompetent and callous. It'd be great if they could make an effort, like actually voting, rather than phoning it in and throwing money at blatantly photoshopped mailers.

The back story is more complicated. They were advised that showing real homeless people would be disrespectful and equivalent to DOXing.

Taking a picture of a tent is not doxing. They could've even used the tent platform in the playground at gasworks with their own tent but they could not be bothered to lift a finger :c
Post reply on HN