Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity • Hacker News Board

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#131

Post by yeahforsureman » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:08 AM UTC

tranchms wrote: post #37

tibbon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen a friend become semi dependent and kinda disassociated from reality after multiple times a week use of various research chemical psychedelics. It seemed to bring out some underlying bipolar like condition. Anyway; also a strong proponent, but I’ve seen the potential harm as well. On the balance it seems worthwhile for many people, and good for many people to try a little LSD at least once.

Research chemicals are dangerous. They’re mostly all synthetics derived from amphetamine class of drugs like MDMA. 2CE. 2CB. 2CI. Etc. and countless others. No one taking them know what it truly is. They are dangerous. And more ubiquitous than LSD-25. You can never be sure what you’re getting. You can OD and have a psychotic episode. I do not classify them as therapeutic psychedelics, and always advise against. If yo…

Although far from non-existent, none of the chemicals you list are more ubiquitous than acid nor usually sold as acid. Actually, their effective dose range is about 100x that of acid and it would be hard to impossible to fit them on a tab.

NBOMEs are something you did see sold as acid especially a few years back, so I'm not saying you shouldn't be careful. The difference in effect is fairly easy to tell, though, and I have no doubt most stuff sold is the real thing. There are some closely related and nearly indistinguishable compounds, but as far as I know, they are about as hard to synthesize and should have a similar risk profile as LSD.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#132

Post by TomMarius » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:40 AM UTC

moyya wrote: post #96

mettamage wrote: post #83

Counterpoint for shrooms 1. I took magic mushrooms (well truffles, Amsterdam, sold in smartshops, i.e. legal) and I felt a bit uncomfortable in my body and I felt like a kid. 2. I took magic truffles again (again Amsterdam) and I felt a lot uncomfortable in my body and was contemplating suicide. Fortunately I had on gray brain cell left that said "you can kill yourself, but only if you agree on it when you're sober a…

I can echo this sentiment, as a normally soft-spoken guy who was arrested while completely out of his mind on psilocybin. My perception of reality was utterly shattered; I thought I had died and that my mind was transported into a realm of eternal torture. I'll never forget the dread I experienced while being forced to the asphalt and handcuffed by police officers on the side of the road. They took me to a hospital w…

Seems like you were missing the three most important parts of a safe psychedelic experience: Set, setting and a trip sitter.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#133

Post by TomMarius » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:43 AM UTC

cgag wrote: post #125

erikpukinskis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it’s 5 years less of post-treatment life. We can make random guesses all day about what’s a good outcome but how about we leave it to medical researchers to actually figure out what’s safe and beneficial?

It seems pretty delusional to just say these people would have spontaneously lost their minds even if they didn't do extremely powerful mind altering drugs.

It seems pretty delusional to make conclusions when you don't even know if they really took LSD or something sold as LSD, but actually dangerous, and are missing basically all other important data other than "they took something and then became crazy", while the then in the sentence means "after that", as in time, not "because of that".

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#134

Post by yeahforsureman » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 11:52 AM UTC

sev wrote: post #45

psychedictic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the common response from proponents of LSD. To them, it's never the LSD, and instead the adverse reaction must be because the person had a mind that was predisposed to some sort of mental illness. Even if it's true that someone has some kind of latent / dormant condition that is ultimately triggered by the LSD, then the act of taking the LSD itself was the catalyst, and the person would have been far better o…

Care should be taken, like with any substance we ingest. However, I disagree with your premise. We do not know if LSD was in fact the catalyst. We don’t know if the people who got ruined after taking a single tab of LSD actually took LSD or some research chemical (which are quite commonly sold off as LSD).

Some research psychedelics are more dangerous physically, and certainly less researched, but in terms of psychological effects, all psychedelics are generally pretty similar. It's silly to assume LSD is somehow significantly less likely to cause psychological trouble.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#135

Post by collyw » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 1:41 PM UTC

psychedictic wrote: post #32

tranchms wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear ya. I’ve yet to see it negatively effect anyone other than a bad trip, which, seen in the right light, can be a therapeutic experience. But I know they need to be respected and understood. I also realize that some people with a family history of mental disorders like schizophrenia, would be better off staying away. Like, some people have used psychedelics, and they go crazy. But how many of those people were c…

Someone does not need to have a "family history of mental disorders" to become an acid casualty. Some people simply have a bad reaction to the chemical and there isn't a reliable way of knowing in advance how a person might react to it.

You could say the same thing about anything that anyone has ever had an allergic reaction to.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#136

Post by collyw » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

juskrey wrote: post #127

prolikewh0a wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard LSD is rarely synthesized now and instead people end up with research chemicals (now scheduled) like 2C-B instead. Do you know if this is true?

True. In fact chances you're buying LSD nowadays is almost zero. And I suspect this is the reason of many bad experiences described in this topic

Where do you get that information from? What are people taking when we see articles on HN talk about the benefits of micro dosing?

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#137

Post by collyw » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

whb07 wrote: post #6

mnm1 wrote: post #2

Current antidepressant drugs are garbage by comparison but we're stuck with them for profit and stupidity reasons. In the meantime millions who could potentially be helped suffer and die. It's truly hard to justify the current situation on this research and the government's position in letting people suffer and die from such a horrific condition as depression when there might be a solution right before our eyes. Futu…

Are we though? Most of the time people look for a pill solution to major deficiencies in their lives. The doctor isn’t strapping you down and shoving the drugs into your mouth. Just like blaming the heroine drug epidemic at pharma and doctors, it’s weird how we never look at the individual who’s taking the pills in the first place. Prior to this epidemic we had other ones to which everyone was really trying to pin th…

The non public health care system you have in the States just looks like such a joke sitting here in Europe.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#138

Post by tcj_phx » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

Gatsky wrote: post #99

cageface wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a good friend freak out in front of me on a bad trip. Almost thirty years later he's still not the same and needs antipsychotic medication to function. This kind of thing isn't common but it can definitely happen.

The rate of psychosis in clinical studies appears to be very low, and they carefully select research subjects. I would suggest that psychedelics cannot take a person with zero risk of developing psychosis, and make them psychotic. There are many apparent triggers for mental illness eg a failed relationship, a drug binge, losing your job, giving birth etc, and we don’t treat these as causal events. Psychedelics are mo…

> People at risk of developing psychosis

Psychosis is an episodic condition caused by metabolic failure. Contributing factors include malnourishment, alcohol withdrawal, chronic stress, certain prescription and OTC drugs, street drugs, etc. People would recover from psychosis if given supportive treatment - good nutrition, B-vitamins (liver, yeast, etc), appropriate pro-metabolic prescriptions, naltrexone to keep them off alcohol, etc.

My observations of the standard treatments forced on "psychotic" patients is that they are only useful for preventing the patient's recovery. My aunt's friend was always sort of 'off', now she's dying of liver failure. Didn't know until now that she's been on maintenance antipsychotics for decades, even though the trigger for her episode concluded decades ago.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#139

Post by ada1981 » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

mrms wrote: post #107

ada1981 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/new-studies-fail-find-associ...

This study seems to suggest classical psychedelics do not cause mental illness which I will not argue against. However, as someone diagnosed as schizophrenic in 2012 and now considered bipolar with pyschotic features my last use of LSD caused a pyschotic break. I had a great trip, but I took the drug at 9pm before a festival and by the time I made it to 6am I could not slow down the frentic pace of thoughts in my bra…

I’m sorry you had such an intense experience!

I was diagnosed with schizophrneia and Biploar. I found that mdma in a theraputic setting helped me heal the underlying condition and resulted in an elimination of symptoms.

I’ve also had psychosis induced by psychedelics, however I also saw how the psychosis was a result of deeper held beliefs that weren’t serving. The psychosis ended up resolving with a much deeper sense of self and compassion.

That said, with a clear understanding of psychosis, how to work with and integrate it, and a theraputic setting for psychedelic use, folks might want to avoid it.

Psychedelics helped me heal without medication.

Re: Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Plasticity

#140

Post by ta1234567890 » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #92

ChristianBundy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that penicillin allergies can only be triggered by penicillin (or maybe penicillin-adjacent analogues). Mental illnesses and psychedelics don't work the same way. Psychedelics bring these issues to the forefront, but they don't necessarily cause mental health issues, as the same issues could happen without LSD. I understand what you're trying to express with your example of penicillin, but it's not…

> In my opinion, it would be more accurate to compare psychedelic drugs to activities like meditation and fasting I've done all 3 of these (meditation as in mindfulness), and I disagree. Of these 3, meditation is the most harmless. It is relaxing, not discomforting (I'll hook into this again at the end of my post). Someone can start meditating or fasting without guidance (though I recommend guidance in both cases, es…

> It is relaxing, not discomforting

Meditation practice is not relaxing at all. The effect after meditating might be in part feeling relaxed, but in general meditation is pretty hard work.

This is probably a very common misconception, you see all the pictures of people meditating at the beach in front of a beautiful sunset and think that meditating is like going to the spa, when in fact meditating is much more like the mental equivalent of going to the gym.

Also, in many occasions (especially during a 10 day retreat like Vipassana), it can be very uncomfortable if not outright physically painful (although usually never dangerous).