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Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#131

Post by [deleted] »

craftyguy wrote: post #37
JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), So it'll be a massacre? I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.

[deleted]

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#132

Post by keymon »

jayniz wrote: post #85
notspanishflu wrote: post #8

Since when applying the law is escalating? All European Union leaders support the rule according a higher law.

When shooting peaceful civilians with (illegal) rubber ammunition and kicking them in the face, for example.

The rubber balls were forbidden only for the Catalonian police, after the incidents in 2011 and 2012 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/30/catalonia-poli...

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#133

Post by syshum »

foldr wrote: post #129
syshum wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act. We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than 5 mins to act. While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power a…

Have you forgotten about the Civil War? It didn't go down super peacefully the last time a group of states tried to go it alone.

Have you forgotten about the American Revolutionary War...

To answer your question no, I have not forgotten about the Civil War and to classify the Civil War as "states trying to go at it alone" is extremely ignorant of the political, economic, and other factors around the Civil War

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#134

Post by 6t6t6t6 »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #84
notspanishflu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution states: > La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado. (The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)

No one under 57 has voted on this constitution. It should be modernised.

Also, when my parents voted for the constitution, the other option what to go back for the dictatorship.

For them, not being beaten by the police for speaking Catalan, was a huge step forward in terms of human rights.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#135

Post by 6t6t6t6 »

notspanishflu wrote: post #50
ardit33 wrote: post #43

It looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times. They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of YES, for independence). Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their ri…

Spanish sovereignty resides in all Spaniards, not just a part of them. It is in the Spanish Constitution. If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and another.

And the sovereignty of the government comes from the social contract. When a big part of the citizens feel that they are not represented by the government, the social contract is broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

The Spaniards seem to love Rajoy, as they give him the majority in every election. Rajoy's party, "Partido Popular", is voted by less than 8% of the Catalans.

So, the question is, why the Catalans need to be governed by a political party, that not only rules against them, but that does not represent Catalan society?

There are more than 2 million people that do not accept the government of Madrid. How will Madrid rule over all this people without transforming Spain to a full-blown dictatorship again?

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#136

Post by skinnymuch »

ghaff wrote: post #56
skinnymuch wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry maybe it's going above my head. Is this sarcasm or there's some context?

I suspect he’s just saying that if California were to hold a binding referendum to secede, he doesn’t think the Federal government would send in troops to arrest the governor and take over California. I tend to agree although, at this point it’s sufficiently a hypothetical that you would need to know something of the circumstances that made it not a hypothetical to have a good opinion.

So seems like he was more than that with saying congress would vote to have them secede.

I don't think the US would send troops of course but they wouldn't just let California secede either. As far as I know precedent says it's illegal to secede in the first place.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#137

Post by ghaff »

skinnymuch wrote: post #136
ghaff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect he’s just saying that if California were to hold a binding referendum to secede, he doesn’t think the Federal government would send in troops to arrest the governor and take over California. I tend to agree although, at this point it’s sufficiently a hypothetical that you would need to know something of the circumstances that made it not a hypothetical to have a good opinion.

So seems like he was more than that with saying congress would vote to have them secede. I don't think the US would send troops of course but they wouldn't just let California secede either. As far as I know precedent says it's illegal to secede in the first place.

Of course, the default is that no one can secede. There was an unpleasantness in the 1860s over that. But ultimately, if a geographical region won’t do what you want it to do, the alternative is to use force. For example, the Federal government used force to enforce voting rights in the 1960s. If asking nicely, threats, and sanctions don’t work, troops are mostly what you have left.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#138

Post by bassman9000 »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

we won't obey what comes from Madrid

The Constitution, you mean?

Good luck when, in your newly forged Republic, some citizens don't want to obey the Rule of Law, because

we won't obey what comes from Barcelona

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#139

Post by njarboe »

syshum wrote: post #54
njarboe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it might go.

How far do to you extend that? because I highly doubt you can find a single government action, law, policy, or anything where 99% of people agree So then you find that all government is illegitimate? or is your 99% requirement only valid for separation?

Separation into a new country is a huge deal. Such a big deal that I don't think any country has a legal mechanism for part of the country to leave. If set up ahead of time maybe 75% or 80% of all eligible voters, would be a good level.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#140

Post by njarboe »

sbmassey wrote: post #63
njarboe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it might go.

Czechia and Slokavia would seem an apter comparison.

True, but a bit more complicated for Spain.
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