Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#41

Post by notspanishflu » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

rdudekul wrote: post #28

nadunez wrote: post #12

>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply rackete…

Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence & other 'onesided-lawful' means. When a significant majority (apparently 90% who polled) wants to separate, calling it a joke, is not really apt.

>Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence...

Except that statement is completely false.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#42

Post by farresito » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

scalesolved wrote: post #29

farresito wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?

I've never seen a poll that lists support for full independence at 50% or higher, could you please provide a link?

No, because sadly they don't let us have a referendum.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#43

Post by ardit33 » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

It looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times. They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of YES, for independence).

Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their rights and Spain would move on to deal with their economy and other matters. Squashing referendums with violence made them look bad and lose the moral ground on the international scale and just embolden the separatists (who wants to live under an oppressive regime anyways).

Also the EU is coming out as a loser in this case. They demonstrated that they basically don't give a fudge about their citizens (which Catalans are), and just want to preserve the political status quo.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#44

Post by notspanishflu » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:48 PM UTC

ryanlol wrote: post #32

notspanishflu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following your argument: lets make happy that 50% breaching the law, and lets punish the 50% honoring the law. That doesn't make any sense.

Supporting independence isn't breaking the law. Voting for independence isn't breaking the law.

But it is. It is specifically forbidden in the Spanish Constitution.

The sovereignty of Spain resides in all Spaniards.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#45

Post by rflrob » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:49 PM UTC

rdudekul wrote: post #28

nadunez wrote: post #12

>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply rackete…

Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence & other 'onesided-lawful' means. When a significant majority (apparently 90% who polled) wants to separate, calling it a joke, is not really apt.

The 90% who show up to an election that was declared illegal by the national courts aren't likely to be representative of the population at large, though. I recall seeing numbers that the overall turnout was something like 40%, so how you would like to apportion support for independence among the non-voting 60% greatly affects how popular you think independence is.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#46

Post by syshum » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:50 PM UTC

notspanishflu wrote: post #16

JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

That street must be Sesame Street. Seriously now. The catalan goverment is acting illegally, against Spanish and Catalan law. What do you expect? The Spanish government must apply the law.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#47

Post by whatyoucantsay » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

notspanishflu wrote: post #33

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #13

The interesting question is what level of brutality the EU is willing to accept before intervening.

Something more than fake news, that's for sure. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo... https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/02/inenglish/1506943013_99... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19...

The spectre of fake news and its accompanying uncertainties could certainly raise the threshold.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#48

Post by ryanlol » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

notspanishflu wrote: post #44

ryanlol wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting independence isn't breaking the law. Voting for independence isn't breaking the law.

But it is. It is specifically forbidden in the Spanish Constitution. The sovereignty of Spain resides in all Spaniards.

Even the Spanish government does not agree with you.

Few individuals such as Puidgemont may very well have violated the law, but supporting them simply isn't against the law.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#49

Post by icebraining » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #15

I’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We t…

Which problem is independence solving?

Have you looked for their arguments, or are your questions rhetorical?

Saying this is about "the details of our passports" is a bit disrespectful. Being part of Spain is about much more than that - as I think both sides would agree. And I don't see why the separation of countries would prevent the union of the continent.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#50

Post by notspanishflu » Sat, Oct 21, 2017, 6:54 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #43

It looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times. They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of YES, for independence). Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their ri…

Spanish sovereignty resides in all Spaniards, not just a part of them. It is in the Spanish Constitution.

If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and another.