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Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#21

Post by notspanishflu »

lordnacho wrote: post #9

Assuming there's a group of people who more or less agree to be separate from some larger group, it's hard to think of legitimate reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to secede. Their forefathers having signed an agreement is hardly a convincing reason to hold them in a union they no longer like. Neither are issues of the current political situation ("it would destabilize the region..."). There's still hard question…

Interestingly enough the same arguments secessionists state for breaking with Spain, they expressly forbid such thing inside Catalonia.

V.g. Barcelona can't propose a secession from Catalonia.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#22

Post by njarboe »

lordnacho wrote: post #9

Assuming there's a group of people who more or less agree to be separate from some larger group, it's hard to think of legitimate reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to secede. Their forefathers having signed an agreement is hardly a convincing reason to hold them in a union they no longer like. Neither are issues of the current political situation ("it would destabilize the region..."). There's still hard question…

"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it might go.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#23

Post by JaumeGreen »

baxtr wrote: post #15

I’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We t…

Which restaurant? Did you raise a complain?

Sorry but these stories ring untrue, given that Barcelona is both a huge touristic destination and most servers speaking Spanish as a rule.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#24

Post by TomK32 »

navigator01 wrote: post #4

Good, we can't allow the dissolution of nations.

Yes, can we have Napoleon's unite Europe back? Or at least the Third Reich? Austria-Hungary was also a terrific idea as was the Ottoman Empire (why did the Greeks every want to rule themselves?)

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#25

Post by [deleted] »

farresito wrote: post #19
nadunez wrote: post #12

>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply rackete…

Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?

[deleted]

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#26

Post by JaumeGreen »

notspanishflu wrote: post #16
JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

That street must be Sesame Street. Seriously now. The catalan goverment is acting illegally, against Spanish and Catalan law. What do you expect? The Spanish government must apply the law.

They should start with all the investigated and condemned politicians (yes, including Pujol).

Those are part of the reasons to wanting to leave.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#27

Post by notspanishflu »

farresito wrote: post #19
nadunez wrote: post #12

>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply rackete…

Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?

Following your argument: lets make happy that 50% breaching the law, and lets punish the 50% honoring the law.

That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#28

Post by rdudekul »

nadunez wrote: post #12

>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply rackete…

Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence & other 'onesided-lawful' means. When a significant majority (apparently 90% who polled) wants to separate, calling it a joke, is not really apt.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#29

Post by scalesolved »

farresito wrote: post #19
nadunez wrote: post #12

>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply rackete…

Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?

I've never seen a poll that lists support for full independence at 50% or higher, could you please provide a link?
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