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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

marginalrevolution.com

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#121

Post by mdoms »

endisneigh wrote: post #32
wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time o…

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again?

How is that relevant? I think no matter what the answer, no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion".

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#122

Post by buzzy_hacker »

mathisonturing wrote: post #101
TomGullen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of all the sports, I would have thought chess would be much less prone to politics because chess players are almost free agents. Are you at all aware of the history of chess?!?

Please share for those uninitiated like me

World Chess Championship 1972 was widely viewed as a proxy for the Cold War

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#123

Post by pastor_bob »

version_five wrote: post #18
endisneigh wrote: post #3

Gotta love how discrimination is so easily spread. Like, this guy has said very many times in public that he doesn’t support the invasion, but he’s Russian, y’know? It’s sad how humanity just keeps doing the same thing over and over…

Agreed - I can't believe how quickly the "mainstream" had adopted a hatred basically of a whole people based on the actions of an autocratic leader that does not represent them, and where speaking out would almost certainly have very bad consequences. We should be doing everything we can to stop Putin from waging war, but casual hatred of a group is not helpful or appropriate, even if it's the obvious extension of al…

This grandmaster's twitter is much more representative as to what the typical Russian citizen thinks about the conflict:

https://twitter.com/SergeyKaryakin

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#124

Post by endisneigh »

throw10920 wrote: post #115
endisneigh wrote: post #3

Gotta love how discrimination is so easily spread. Like, this guy has said very many times in public that he doesn’t support the invasion, but he’s Russian, y’know? It’s sad how humanity just keeps doing the same thing over and over…

This is completely, totally wrong. There's no "discrimination" here - Grischuk is a Russian citizen , which is why he's being kicked out of the tournament, along with the other Russian citizens mentioned - their ethnicity is a non-factor. The only relevant issue is the question as to whether all Russian citizens (regardless of ethnicity) should be banned from these kinds of events (more generally: have sanctions and…

Your comment is the one that’s blatantly wrong - no one mentioned discrimination on the basis of ethnicity other than you.

Discriminating on nationality is still discrimination.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#125

Post by Someone »

mathisonturing wrote: post #101
TomGullen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of all the sports, I would have thought chess would be much less prone to politics because chess players are almost free agents. Are you at all aware of the history of chess?!?

Please share for those uninitiated like me

Many people think that, in the time of the USSR, Russian chess players conspired to make sure a Soviet player won tournaments.

For example, they would try harder to beat strong non-Soviet players than to beat strong Soviet players, would throw away games to give a Soviet player more points, would offer a draw very soon to give a Soviet player time to rest/prepare for theirnext matig, etc.

There’s also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1948#...

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#126

Post by cool_dude85 »

jstx1 wrote: post #25
wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

As I recall, this is what happened to Nepo during the recent World Chess Championship anyway due to the doping scandal.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#127

Post by throwaway5752 »

Russian nationals and teams have been removed from FIFA, IHL, and many other competitions. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair that Ukraine has had its sovereignty violated by an unprovoked invasion.

It is intrinsically biased to vet individuals based on their personal political beliefs, that seems like it would be worse. So the alternatives are to allow Russian nationals / national teams or to not allow them. These are extraordinary circumstances so I reluctantly support exclusions, and am deeply saddened by them.

It would be so beneficial to everyone if this horrible invasion ceased and the Russian army withdrew from Ukraine. They should stop killing innocent people for the goal of territorial expansion, and then the world can renormalize as quickly as possible.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#128

Post by bloak »

buzzdenver wrote: post #36

It is a sucky situation without any perfect solutions. Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Judging everyone based on their individual reactions to the invasion is just not a scalable solution, and probably also puts those who speak out in greater danger.

> Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision.

Yes, it would be clear if you define "Russian". Do you mean everyone who currently holds a Russian passport? Everyone who has at some point held a Russian passport? What about someone who used to have a Soviet passport with their nationality recorded in it as "Russian" but who didn't live in Russia? What about people who used to have a Soviet passport and lived in Russia but with a different nationality in their documents?

(Apparently Russian passports up until around 1997 had a "nationality" field, like the old Soviet passports, so you could have a Russian passport with your nationality recorded as something other than Russian. Presumably you could officially be a Ukrainian citizen of Russia, for example. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the other former Soviet states also record nationality so you might be able to have a passport from Kazakhstan or Latvia that says "Russian" in it. I would hope, however, that nobody is seriously thinking of banning "Russians" while defining "Russians" to include people who have never had either a Soviet or a Russian passport.)

EDIT: I would guess that you'd probably want to define "Russian" for these purposes as someone who currently has a Russian passport, but perhaps it's not totally obvious that that's the right answer?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#129

Post by Mo3 »

seszett wrote: post #112
Mo3 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah giving them the EU passports and just attributing them to „EU“

There is no "EU passport", just 27 national passports that also have "European Union" written next to the issuing country. It's only up to individual countries to issue their passports, also Norway isn't in the EU anyway.

I am referring to the EUs plans to issue passports. I'm not informed beyond having heard this.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#130

Post by encryptluks2 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29
encryptluks2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't understandable really. What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified. Unless they have some proof that they are a spy or as an extension of Russian government for a dangerous intent, then there is no excuse. This is only going to create more conflict and tension, and generate hatred in people that would otherwise be neutral.

> What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified It is discrimination. And it's entirely justified. The same way when, if your friend stars a bar brawl, you all get kicked out. Only he should get e.g. arrested. But there's a big difference between not being able to compete for your country and getting shelled.

Wow, so you believe people of color deserve discrimination because statistically they commit more violent crime?
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