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Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

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121–130 of 171 posts

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#121
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. Homogeneity is dangerous for an ecosystem and even if it weren't, not all apps, websites, products of code are consumed by straight white guys living on the US coasts. A mix of perspectives is a healthy thing.

I like to think that since white guys are generally the most universally hated group by other race\gender combo's, white guys just dont really care who you are as long as you get the job done. Thats why they have the lowest interest in diversity.

I think it's probably something else:

To us white guys, diversity means us someone like us not getting a job, or possibly us not getting the job. All the other groups rated it much higher because it means someone in their group getting the job, including possibly themselves.

It's an inherently selfish question, even thought it's not presented as such.

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. Two of my clients are still using VB Apps I wrote for them in VB6. I'm not ashamed. They work, and they've worked well for 12+ years, with only the most minor of updates. Not every business follows the 'innovate fast and break things' mold. Thankfully.

Exactly, we should be proud of creating Software that works and works great. Not the languages we develop in. The one main lesson if there is I learnt from 13 years of development is, keep the dev stack boring!

Whenever a kid comes around with the cool idea lets rewrite this in X, they need to explain me the business value of the proposal, like in, how will that change the monetary outcome of a project.

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#123

I think there is severe bias in their results simply because of the content in stack overflow and the people that visit. For example, the data on a lot of developers only having 1-3 years of programming experience. That would naturally follow that a majority of active users on a Q&A site would not have much experience, right? Same can be said for data about what technologies are represented - JavaScript was at the to…

I agree. Anecdotal but I used to visit SO all the time during my first years as a programmer compared to now where I only need it occasionally. It was also a long time ago I posted an actual question.

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#124
post #14

I'm surprised to see "platforms" as Win: 41%, Desktop Linux: 33%, Mac: 18.4%. Presumably this question was about the machine you use to develop software on. The reason I'm surprised has nothing to do with any advocacy. It's just that whenever I look around at a non-Apple dev conference in the US (Web, for example), it looks as though fewer than 1/5 of the machines are NON-Macs, while the answer to the question above…

Maybe the conferences you are going are the tech startups conferences. The majority of developers are working in big banks and big consulting companies. They use PCs, java or .NET, Visual Studio.

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#125
post #65
post #56

43% prefer tabs? Get out! [ http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017/#work-tabs-or-... ]

The problematic ones are the 19.3% who prefer both...

Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. That way devs can set whatever tab length they prefer in their editors without messing up alignment.

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#126
post #56

43% prefer tabs? Get out! [ http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017/#work-tabs-or-... ]

I use spaces exclusively, but only because everyone else does. Tabs are clearly superior, since their width can be adjusted to look however you like. For instance, I prefer 4 spaces of indentation in Javascript. Another developer here prefers 2. With tabs, we could both be happy.

Yeah, this is the argument that I make as well, and I don't understand why it doesn't just settle the debate. With tabs, everyone can have their code look however they want it to look, even the weirdos who want it to be 8 spaces.

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#127
post #42

I found it fascinating that Smalltalk was #2 as most loved language in spite of its minimal use. Many of the ideas developed for Smalltalk are now commonplace, so I'm guessing that it's the careful integration of those ideas that makes it special. It is my favorite language, btw. :)

> I found it fascinating that Smalltalk was #2 as most loved language in spite of its minimal use.

It probably is because of the minimal use (and I believe #1, Rust, is also there because it's still not that common). Their "loved" metric is number of people who are using a language and would not like to switch to a different one. I suppose that the only people who use it are people who love it so much that they can ignore issues caused by lack of popularity (small number of libraries and tools, problems with OS support, etc.).

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#128
post #56

43% prefer tabs? Get out! [ http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017/#work-tabs-or-... ]

I use spaces exclusively, but only because everyone else does. Tabs are clearly superior, since their width can be adjusted to look however you like. For instance, I prefer 4 spaces of indentation in Javascript. Another developer here prefers 2. With tabs, we could both be happy.

Oh, those memories... That's exactly what I thought a convincing argument when I was taking my first steps in development. Everyone can make the code look as they want! But wait... Why would everyone want the code to have different visual indentation? I fail to see the benefit in that. The so called "personal preference" is a hoax. After having given up on tabs I used to think 4 spaces are so amazingly cool, 2 spaces are weird. And then standard came along and finally brought consistency. Of course, they couldn't get it right, and abandoned semicolons, which is why there is also semistandard. Ask Douglas Crockford why you should have semicolons in your code. There is a good reason for that, not based on anyone's "personal preference".

The tabs vs 4 spaces vs 2 spaces is not the whole story, oh no. It is merely the beginning. There are many other life threatening problems to solve. Where to put the brackets? Multiple var statement or just one? Space between function name and brackets or no? The list just goes on. You keep thinking what is better. There is no clear answer, one choice is no better than the other but you have to make up your mind. You have to make the decision and stick to it, because code should be consistently formatted. And when you finally decide, it becomes part of you, part of your identity. "I am the guy who has just one var statement! I am the guy who does not bother with a space between function name and the bracket!" Yeah, you're such a cool, original rebel, you are. And if someone tries to take it away from you you get really angry. It is a bit like religion. On some level we know it does not really make sense, but all the same we believe in it because it defines who we are.

Douglas is right, you know. We, devs, are not as rational and logic driven as we think we are. We are very irrational and emotions driven, maybe even more than other people around us. 2 spaces in the way of your happiness. Bah!

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#129
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of US, very few people use macs compared to you. Here in euw even in a CS course, engineering class in a top university or hackathon in a big startup incubator I can see like 1 macbook every 30 standard notebooks. Reason is simple: they are very overpriced for ours salaries (and I am in a first world country, I think their costs are prohibitive in places like India/Cina/etc) and - personal reason - as a webde…

The situation is entirely the other way round here in Singapore (for the younger generation). I used to run Linux on a laptop, but eventually I gave up and switched to Macbook so that I don't have to deal with drivers and low-level config issues on a daily basis. In my university, 60%-70% of CS students use a Macbook. They are not working or attending conferences yet, so the change is going to take some time.

"deal with drivers and low-level config issues on a daily basis"

What in gods name are you talking about? Are you using a distro from 1995?

Re: Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results 2017

#130
post #57
post #14

I'm surprised to see "platforms" as Win: 41%, Desktop Linux: 33%, Mac: 18.4%. Presumably this question was about the machine you use to develop software on. The reason I'm surprised has nothing to do with any advocacy. It's just that whenever I look around at a non-Apple dev conference in the US (Web, for example), it looks as though fewer than 1/5 of the machines are NON-Macs, while the answer to the question above…

Developers that attend conferences in USA are very small and biased subset of total developers worldwide. For vast majority of developers attending a conference in USA would cost few to several months worth of salary, so it's no brainer. Not to mention bullish USA border controls that makes people (especially non-white) think twice before traveling. I haven't seen many developers using Macs outside of USA and few Wes…

Developers that attend conferences in USA are very small and biased subset of total developers worldwide.

It's even a very small and biased subset of the total developers in the United States. The majority (I would say vast majority) do not attend conferences. Sometimes because their workplace won't fund it, but often simply because they find no value in it. I personally gave up going to conferences years ago partly because workplaces treated it almost like they were giving me a vacation that I should feel grateful for, but it certainly didn't feel like a vacation. And afterwards I would try to itemize the value I received...to have nothing (talking to developers of the vendors face to face was, if anything, less productive than simply dropping a note on a discussion board).

So that subset often comes from more moneyed employers, or are the "see and be seen" sort, or they really get value out of it. For the former two sets a Mac is a pretty likely device.

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