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Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

reuters.com

111–120 of 149 posts

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to abuse whataboutism, but you're aware that besides actively engaging in multiple wars and international military actions we also support Ukrainian war effort directly right? You're suffering of the usual American exceptionalism, where US is allowed to overthrow governments at will, conduct military actions, decide to support whatever side (sometimes arming both), but other countries cannot. Just to poi…

> I obviously condone the military actions in Ukraine (especially since I am a Pole of Ukrainian descent) I don't want to be too adversarial, but don't you feel a bit hypocritical by supporting Ukraine to preserve its sovereignty in face of a larger, strongly authoritarian neighbor, but arguing for Taiwanese to simply give up their own?

I never argued for that:

> The way I see it, western countries and US should take a clear stand about Taiwanese statehood, and Taiwan needs to do it first on their own in order for the rest of the world to take a stand, as they legally still lay claim on the entirety of China (and beyond).

and this:

> This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Taiwan in Chinese statehood under very huge degrees of autonomy, which no one, let alone Taiwanese people ever trust or by unilateral statehood declaration.

I argue that at some point there is a need for a de jure resolution of the Taiwanese matter or this issue will come again and again.

And, the way I see it, it has been US starting from Bush but most importantly under the hawkish Trump presidency that has made the matter relevant again combined with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have already proved time and time again to be able to make gigantic leaps, some of those, completely on their own in the sector. Pouring billions in the sector highly increases the chances of breakthrough technologies. I personally think more competition in the space is good for everyone, albeit I'm not a fan of those trade wars, they accomplish little at the end of the day and they are funded with a lot of our…

Okay only time will tell. Which technologies has Chinese capital (rather than American capital) been successful at funding, I think display technology and solar panels they are ahead on, anything else?

SMIC achieved a competitive 7nm node on their own.

5nm has also been achieved on their own, albeit the yields are not enough for mass production till 2024 and it doesn't uses EUV litography.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not missing anything. Things like these are mainly virtue signaling and the decision makers are indifferent to the consequences for us, is my take.

> Things like these are mainly virtue signaling No military implications, huh? Just anti-China virtue signaling?

Yes. The military mainly use obsolete equipment when compared to civilian standards because reasons. There is no military angle to this at all other than maybe the hope of making diplomatic relations worse to bring one.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if it was ethically justified or not. The fact remains that the assets were frozen by the US government which runs contrary to the notion that the US allows unrestricted capital movement. Today it's Russians' assets, yesterday it was Afghanistan's central bank's assets and tomorrow it can be any other country

I assume you'd deliver fuel to the Japanese Empire until they directly attacked you. Or maybe even later, after all deals have to be kept right?

> I assume you'd deliver fuel to the Japanese Empire until they directly attacked you

Japan attacked because they were running out of fuel and had to act quickly (either strike, or back down in China which they didn't want to). Without an embargo, they would have just continued their war in China.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#115

This is completely idiotic policy for Netherland's own interest. They are closing themselves from a huge market, just to satisfy the misguided ideas from the neocon think-tank spawns that infected both the last and the current US administration. It won't fucking work. Sanctions only work when targeted against weak countries, where they can have a devastating impact. Against a country like China, they just protect nas…

If NL does supply China, the US and other allies may reduce / withdraw support and / or trade; this isn't just trade, this is international relationships, and for the moment, the relationship with the US is more important than that with China.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#116
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This site is American and thus patriotism plays a heavy role in the bias of comments. Usually, China is by default viewed in a negative light. It blinds people to the obvious fact that the US is heavily using anti free market tactics to end globalism while China is not acting as the aggressor here.

Every country in the world is supposed to work to further the interests of its citizens (in accordance with human rights, international agreements etc). Trying to appeal to some higher ideal of "free market" between countries is just silly. Did China and EU sign a comprehensive free trade agreement when I was asleep? (as Netherlands is an EU country and all cross border trade lawmaking is offloaded to the EU). If not…

National security is the cover story. The real story is about economic power.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t we just be back to the 1950-1970s again? China bans all trade, except through Hong Kong. The rest of the world doesn’t notice much, China is really poor. Just look at North Korea, that is basically what juche is.

> except through Hong Kong. Pardon my ignorance. Why would China make that exception? Is Hong Kong a more important trading centre than (say) Shanghai?

Times change. A typical Chinese metropolis completely dwarfs hong Kong. That's why China was willing to back pedal on the autonomy deal for hong Kong because its no longer means much as an economic powerhouse. Almost every other Chinese city has left it in the dust.

You know this, but a lot of people are just behind on the current economic reality. Not surprising given the speed at which china moves.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay only time will tell. Which technologies has Chinese capital (rather than American capital) been successful at funding, I think display technology and solar panels they are ahead on, anything else?

SMIC achieved a competitive 7nm node on their own. 5nm has also been achieved on their own, albeit the yields are not enough for mass production till 2024 and it doesn't uses EUV litography.

It’s a hack as I understand it, not good for volume production and design specific in a way that makes it non competitive.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#119
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have already proved time and time again to be able to make gigantic leaps, some of those, completely on their own in the sector. Pouring billions in the sector highly increases the chances of breakthrough technologies. I personally think more competition in the space is good for everyone, albeit I'm not a fan of those trade wars, they accomplish little at the end of the day and they are funded with a lot of our…

>>They have already proved time and time again to be able to make gigantic leaps, some of those, completely on their own in the sector. Yes, we shall see. An awful lot of those giant leaps were extremely dependent on technology that was either systematically forced to hand over from democratic countries, or outright stolen by espionage (see their fighter jet vs F35, and some sub technologies). Have the Chinese manage…

> Yes, we shall see. An awful lot of those giant leaps were extremely dependent on technology that was either systematically forced to hand over from democratic countries, or outright stolen by espionage (see their fighter jet vs F35, and some sub technologies).

Here we go again. A little bit of reading here[0] and here[1].

[0]https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I obviously condone the military actions in Ukraine (especially since I am a Pole of Ukrainian descent) I don't want to be too adversarial, but don't you feel a bit hypocritical by supporting Ukraine to preserve its sovereignty in face of a larger, strongly authoritarian neighbor, but arguing for Taiwanese to simply give up their own?

I never argued for that: > The way I see it, western countries and US should take a clear stand about Taiwanese statehood, and Taiwan needs to do it first on their own in order for the rest of the world to take a stand, as they legally still lay claim on the entirety of China (and beyond). and this: > This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Taiwan in Chinese statehood under very huge degrees of auton…

> This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Ukraine in Russia under very huge degrees of autonomy...

> I argue that at some point there is a need for a de jure resolution of the Ukrainian matter or this issue will come again and again.

How does that sound to your ears?

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