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Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

reuters.com

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Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#41

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jpgvm wrote: post #14
rawrawrawrr wrote: post #3

> Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin on Tuesday urged the Netherlands "to be impartial, respect market principles and the law, take practical actions to protect the common interests of both countries and their companies and maintain the stability of international supply chains". This amuses me greatly. I had no idea China is explicitly pro-market capitalism.

China is a more market orientated economy than most people would expect. There are large SOEs (state owned enterprises) sure but ultimately the whole point of "communism with Chinese characteristics" is to leverage market forces for efficiency where that makes sense. China generally speaking is very free from a business/trade perspective, the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensi…

National security concerns includes semiconductors, so if the shoes were on the other foot, China wouldn’t act much differently in withholding machines.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#43

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #34
itsoktocry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensitive industries. Yes, those things are off limits. Now, how do you define what's finance or national security? Whatever they need to control (the US does this too). All of these "China is a free market" comments are funny; their capital markets are closed, you can't freely move money in and out without government permission.

So exactly the same as in the US? For instance the Russians got their assets frozen by a whim of the US government

I think parent meant that China has explicit capital controls that you have to navigate to transfer money between countries. In the USA, this is just a wire and you don’t need a ton of documentation and approval to do it. The USA uses that ease of access as a carrot and a stick, the Chinese can’t use that as a carrot and a stick because they simply don’t have it.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#44

Post by layer8 »

janmo wrote: post #6

The US is trying to starve China out of advanced semiconductors, not sure this will end well (For Taiwan).

Even if things don’t “end well” for Taiwan, it’s unlikely that China will obtain Taiwan‘s manufacturing abilities. They will rather be destroyed, to ensure that China doesn’t get their hands on them, and then everyone will suffer the consequences.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#45

Post by seanmcdirmid »

corethree wrote: post #37

Hypothetical question... if China banned all trade with the US what would happen to the US? And what would happen to china?

Wouldn’t we just be back to the 1950-1970s again? China bans all trade, except through Hong Kong. The rest of the world doesn’t notice much, China is really poor. Just look at North Korea, that is basically what juche is.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#46

Post by ksec »

holoduke wrote: post #2

I wonder if these actions will have the opposite effect. China will only more invest into producing their own. And I think we should not underestimate them. Could be good for competition though.

As other have said this is already happening with Huawei and SMIC. And this is DUV, not EUV. China has already poured billions into it, and will continue to do so until it is somewhat cost neutral. 98% of smartphone outside of Apple and Samsung are Chinese brand. Their domestic market will be the first to use some of these chips, to use the term HN may have heard of it, To eat its own dog food.

It isn't just Foundry or ASML either, it is across every single component sub sector. From NAND, DRAM, LCD Panel to OLED etc.

And Apple is behind it, "lifting" ( as they would like to call it ) every single one of these manufacture. Something no one likes to mention or continue to be ignored.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#47

Post by seanmcdirmid »

layer8 wrote: post #44
janmo wrote: post #6

The US is trying to starve China out of advanced semiconductors, not sure this will end well (For Taiwan).

Even if things don’t “end well” for Taiwan, it’s unlikely that China will obtain Taiwan‘s manufacturing abilities. They will rather be destroyed, to ensure that China doesn’t get their hands on them, and then everyone will suffer the consequences.

Taiwan is subject to the same equipment dependencies as China. They don’t make the machines, they import them from the Americans, Dutch, and Germans. If China took over Taiwan, they might be able to obtain Salem great semiconductor engineers (but they could just hire them already on work visas), maybe some plans for the next 2 or 3 years on chips they can’t fab without western equipment, but that’s it. Economically, they would gain just land and any people that survive the invasion.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#48

Post by cjfd »

ahoka wrote: post #4
holoduke wrote: post #2

I wonder if these actions will have the opposite effect. China will only more invest into producing their own. And I think we should not underestimate them. Could be good for competition though.

It still spreads your opponents resources thinner, from a strictly game theory perspective.

Meh, from a strict game theory perspective restricting trade makes both sides poorer. You know, both parties in a trading contract only sign on the dotted line if both are advantaged by it.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#49

Post by Roark66 »

corethree wrote: post #29
esafak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's respect for free market principles here doesn't amuse you too?

This site is American and thus patriotism plays a heavy role in the bias of comments. Usually, China is by default viewed in a negative light. It blinds people to the obvious fact that the US is heavily using anti free market tactics to end globalism while China is not acting as the aggressor here.

Every country in the world is supposed to work to further the interests of its citizens (in accordance with human rights, international agreements etc).

Trying to appeal to some higher ideal of "free market" between countries is just silly. Did China and EU sign a comprehensive free trade agreement when I was asleep? (as Netherlands is an EU country and all cross border trade lawmaking is offloaded to the EU). If not, they really should just shut up.

There of course exists a World Trade Organisation which is like a treaty that essentially says "we're not going to engage in targeted regulation", but it has caveats "unless it has to do with national security" and few other things. So it's really a framework to facilitate trade rather than a global free market.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#50

Post by pi-e-sigma »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So exactly the same as in the US? For instance the Russians got their assets frozen by a whim of the US government

I think parent meant that China has explicit capital controls that you have to navigate to transfer money between countries. In the USA, this is just a wire and you don’t need a ton of documentation and approval to do it. The USA uses that ease of access as a carrot and a stick, the Chinese can’t use that as a carrot and a stick because they simply don’t have it.

That is simply not true. The US has a complex capital controls laws in place, mostly disguised as anti-money laundering rules.
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