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Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

reuters.com

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Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#21

Post by secfirstmd »

adamsb6 wrote: post #20
holoduke wrote: post #2

I wonder if these actions will have the opposite effect. China will only more invest into producing their own. And I think we should not underestimate them. Could be good for competition though.

Steve Hsu has had guests on his podcasts saying exactly this. There was already a domestic semiconductor industry but big players almost never used them since the big semiconductor companies were such a safe bet. Well, now they’re forced to use them, and they’re growing. With the fabs available to them they can’t produce latest gen very few nanometer dies, but for a lot of use cases that doesn’t matter. And of course…

Also China is pretty good at espionage these days...

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#22

Post by rightbyte »

Aachen wrote: post #12
janmo wrote: post #6

The US is trying to starve China out of advanced semiconductors, not sure this will end well (For Taiwan).

Or anyone, including ourselves, if you look beyond the short term "they can't make fast chips for a few years". Even the elderly folk currently calling these shots will likely still be alive when the consequences materialise Or maybe I'm overlooking something, I'm no macroeconomic strategist, just someone who was taught in high school that we learned from previous walled economies

You are not missing anything. Things like these are mainly virtue signaling and the decision makers are indifferent to the consequences for us, is my take.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#23

Post by itsoktocry »

Aachen wrote: post #12
janmo wrote: post #6

The US is trying to starve China out of advanced semiconductors, not sure this will end well (For Taiwan).

Or anyone, including ourselves, if you look beyond the short term "they can't make fast chips for a few years". Even the elderly folk currently calling these shots will likely still be alive when the consequences materialise Or maybe I'm overlooking something, I'm no macroeconomic strategist, just someone who was taught in high school that we learned from previous walled economies

>Even the elderly folk currently calling these shots will likely still be alive when the consequences materialise

What are the consequences you speak of? The entire point is "they can't make fast chips for a few years"; we are preparing for confrontation.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#24

Post by adamsb6 »

rawrawrawrr wrote: post #3

> Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin on Tuesday urged the Netherlands "to be impartial, respect market principles and the law, take practical actions to protect the common interests of both countries and their companies and maintain the stability of international supply chains". This amuses me greatly. I had no idea China is explicitly pro-market capitalism.

Walk around any Chinese city and you’ll see hundreds of small businesses, as well as evidence of massive conglomerates.

That the state reserves the right to interfere as it sees fit doesn’t make it not capitalist. Unless the current chip war is evidence of America being not capitalist.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#25

Post by itsoktocry »

rightbyte wrote: post #22
Aachen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or anyone, including ourselves, if you look beyond the short term "they can't make fast chips for a few years". Even the elderly folk currently calling these shots will likely still be alive when the consequences materialise Or maybe I'm overlooking something, I'm no macroeconomic strategist, just someone who was taught in high school that we learned from previous walled economies

You are not missing anything. Things like these are mainly virtue signaling and the decision makers are indifferent to the consequences for us, is my take.

>Things like these are mainly virtue signaling

No military implications, huh? Just anti-China virtue signaling?

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#26

Post by RandomLensman »

Aachen wrote: post #12
janmo wrote: post #6

The US is trying to starve China out of advanced semiconductors, not sure this will end well (For Taiwan).

Or anyone, including ourselves, if you look beyond the short term "they can't make fast chips for a few years". Even the elderly folk currently calling these shots will likely still be alive when the consequences materialise Or maybe I'm overlooking something, I'm no macroeconomic strategist, just someone who was taught in high school that we learned from previous walled economies

Not sure CoCom was a failure during the cold war.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#27

Post by RandomLensman »

rightbyte wrote: post #22
Aachen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or anyone, including ourselves, if you look beyond the short term "they can't make fast chips for a few years". Even the elderly folk currently calling these shots will likely still be alive when the consequences materialise Or maybe I'm overlooking something, I'm no macroeconomic strategist, just someone who was taught in high school that we learned from previous walled economies

You are not missing anything. Things like these are mainly virtue signaling and the decision makers are indifferent to the consequences for us, is my take.

Are you saying it needs to be more like CoCom to matter?

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#28

Post by itsoktocry »

jpgvm wrote: post #14
rawrawrawrr wrote: post #3

> Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin on Tuesday urged the Netherlands "to be impartial, respect market principles and the law, take practical actions to protect the common interests of both countries and their companies and maintain the stability of international supply chains". This amuses me greatly. I had no idea China is explicitly pro-market capitalism.

China is a more market orientated economy than most people would expect. There are large SOEs (state owned enterprises) sure but ultimately the whole point of "communism with Chinese characteristics" is to leverage market forces for efficiency where that makes sense. China generally speaking is very free from a business/trade perspective, the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensi…

>the exceptions to that are mostly related to finance or national security sensitive industries.

Yes, those things are off limits. Now, how do you define what's finance or national security? Whatever they need to control (the US does this too).

All of these "China is a free market" comments are funny; their capital markets are closed, you can't freely move money in and out without government permission.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#29

Post by corethree »

esafak wrote: post #13
rawrawrawrr wrote: post #3

> Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin on Tuesday urged the Netherlands "to be impartial, respect market principles and the law, take practical actions to protect the common interests of both countries and their companies and maintain the stability of international supply chains". This amuses me greatly. I had no idea China is explicitly pro-market capitalism.

America's respect for free market principles here doesn't amuse you too?

This site is American and thus patriotism plays a heavy role in the bias of comments. Usually, China is by default viewed in a negative light.

It blinds people to the obvious fact that the US is heavily using anti free market tactics to end globalism while China is not acting as the aggressor here.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#30

Post by ArchD »

holoduke wrote: post #2

I wonder if these actions will have the opposite effect. China will only more invest into producing their own. And I think we should not underestimate them. Could be good for competition though.

Maybe they can develop their own high-tech fabrication technology to catch up, but I wonder how they will manage and accelerate the progress.

The West has IP laws to incentivise R&D by the free market. In China, IP law enforcement is hit-and-miss. Small entities risk having their research getting used by others for free so it would be up to big entities that are well-connected to the centers of power to do the R&D. Research done by a few big entities in a centralized manner may not foster much innovation.

So maybe it boils down to how well they can spy or poach talent or knowledgeable people from Western companies, or maybe reverse-engineer Western products.

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