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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#111

Post by imgabe »

FilterSweep wrote: post #18
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

I'd have a lot more understanding for the people working on the atomic bomb. From their perspective they were in the midst of a world war with an enemy that was trying to do the same thing. That's just a matter of preserving your own existence.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#112

Post by ForHackernews »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

On the other hand, maybe making a public pledge will help strengthen their ethical resolve in a year or two.

That's the idea behind this pledge, for example: http://neveragain.tech/ (though I've yet to see any of the Palantir employees actually quitting)

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#113

Post by bepotts »

Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

And it's so transparent at this point. I've listened to podcasts with reporters and they lament the rise of Facebook and how "Facebook is stealing their business" through ads and algorithm changes that hurt them.

But the bias doesn't matter because everyone on the internet hates them (and Google) so they just rush to pile on. Anything negative about Facebook gets to the front page very quickly. The thing is, Facebook has billions of users and you don't get billions of users by being evil. People may not love Facebook, but there really isn't a better way to keep up with friends, family, and to organize get togethers. I don't use Facebook that much, but I'll never delete it. It's just too valuable in my life.

As an aside: we're all engineers here, and if Facebook offered you guys a job, almost everyone here would take it. Their engineering team, quality of life, and compensation is extremely hard to beat. The NY Times found a couple college kids who don't want to work for Facebook. Okay. As a recent college graduate I can assure you that almost everyone in my graduating class would have taken a job at Facebook if given the chance. Facebook came and hired the smartest of my graduating class and the "hackathon" crowd puts Facebook at close to the top of their list of companies to work for. Facebook isn't hurting for talent and they have the compensation packages to compete for the best of the best.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#114

Post by asdkhadsj »

ggggtez wrote: post #64
leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

Oh please. "19-year-old kids" can sign their life away to the military. They can vote in elections. To suggest that we shouldn't allow people who are adults by every meaning of the word, voice their opinions publicly and attributed to themselves is ludicrous.

Likewise, it takes courage to put your name, face and words out there in this manner. As the OP was saying, it can haunt you. Saying they're young a naive for doing this may be true, but it's dismissive of what they've done. What they've done is something I like and respect, I wish more would say that.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#115

Post by Jonanin »

jedberg wrote: post #92
Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

That's not how real journalism works. The journalists are separated from the business side. Good publications go as far as prohibiting their editors from talking to anyone who deals with revenue.

Your impression of how real journalism works is a lot harder to believe.

You don't think writers see and care about how many clicks or views their articles get? Everyone knows these metrics are _directly_ correlated with revenue.

FB used to drive an insane amount of traffic to these publishers back when our news feeds were full of news articles. They pivoted very sharply and suddenly away from that, which hurt publisher revenues (and views) very substantially.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#116

Post by [deleted] »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

[deleted]

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#117

Post by eksemplar »

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard?

Where is it ethical to work?

I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is really that more evil than around 90% of the hundreds of software companies we deal with.

Like we recently ordered a system for abused children journals. A nationwide bidding landing in a 120 million danish or deal, for a piece of software that 30 municipalities build an equivalent of on their own for 2 million danish kr a few years back.

So some company is making 118 million because the world is rotten. That company is the most popular tech destination for newly educated CS grads in my country by the way.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#118

Post by [deleted] »

bradenb wrote: post #53
ralusek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to when you hear people say "I love my job but they don't pay a living wage!" It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that.

> It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that. I don't buy that. I don't think enjoying your job and being paid well need to be mutually exclusive. I think it's in an employer's best interest that their employees enjoy their job. Part of that is that an employee has to not feel the stress of being underpaid or overworked.

[deleted]

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#119

Post by Apocryphon »

jedberg wrote: post #86
johan_larson wrote: post #26

I have to wonder how many of the top 50 or so tech companies have really sterling reputations for warm-hearted goodness. Powerful organizations usually end up stepping on somebody's toes either in getting to the top or staying there. And really, where else are you going to work if you are a developer and want to make money? One of the big banks? Plenty of dirt there. A defence contractor? Ditto.

I'd say Netflix has a pretty good external reputation. They do good by their customers and don't sell them out. They take your money and show your videos and don't share your data. They have hits and misses on their original content, but they don't actually make that stuff, they just compete with all the other big entertainment outlets to distribute what production companies make. There is of course strong opinions a…

Netflix does as a company to consumers, though among workers their cutthroat culture has been infamous even before the recent NYT profile, though so is their high compensation.

I don’t agree with lumping them in with the tech giants though. Why them and not Tesla, Uber, AirBnB, Dropbox, etc.?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#120

Post by KerrickStaley »

RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u wrote: post #37

Sure, I can accept that CS students say and believe that; ask them again when they're CS graduates . Also, stated & revealed preferences are often dissimilar, plus virtue signaling costs nothing. Bottom line, until the FANNG initialism changes, I wouldn't take the report seriously.

*FAANG
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