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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

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Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#111

Post by sambe »

damptowel wrote: post #104
sambe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Was there actually anything different at all about TTIP negotiations (vs other EU negotiations) until the leaks? I was under the impression that most or all similar documents were only made available at a mature stage (eg after first official draft is ready, passed legal, translated etc).

The issue as I perceive it (because this may have to do with perception of "elites" and the forms of democracy one ascribes to), is that a global deal of this magnitude should be made public and subject to popular democratic influence, simply because it influences so many people. And apparently they were really trying to keep it all hush hush to avoid exactly those kinds of protest. When the news found a way out, the…

Where they really trying to keep it hush hush though? My question is whether this actually differed from general policy and procedures. Maybe there is an argument that more far-reaching agreements should be subject to greater scrutiny, but there is (probably) no precedent for that. At the end of the day, you give a mandate to your representative and they are supposed to deal with it.

Scandal and conspiracy helps sell newspapers.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#112

Post by knabacks »

bluecalm wrote: post #58
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

The problem is that minority can organize a street protest to protect its interest at the cost of interest of general public who is not that motivated to take it to the street on what is one of many (and often not in the category of the most important ones) issues for them. One example is Uber. Everyone I know who uses it loves it, it's cheaper, more reliable, the service is better as well. Despite all of it there ar…

No offense, but in the case of uber it is alot more to it.

just one example:

In many european countries a driver needs a special insurance for human transportation. In case of an accident this insurance goes into effect, not having this is really bad for all people involved.

In case of ttip:

In europe we got high standards and good laws to protect people(consumers, workers, ...). Dont blame me for this, but this is not the case for the usa.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#113

Post by witty_username »

damptowel wrote: post #88
yoplait_ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elected representatives could not negotiate the deal themselves because it is way too technical. So the actual negotiators were given a mandate by the elected representatives. Elected representatives then get to decide whether they will vote for the deal. TTIP is dead because it's become clear the deal will not get approval from all representatives, in part because of public disapproval. In conclusion, TTIP _is_ demo…

> Elected representatives could not negotiate the deal themselves because it is way too technical. It really isn't ...

Could you elaborate?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#114

Post by witty_username »

antris wrote: post #101
cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

>it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from. I don't understand how the demonstrations are preventing getting anything done? If it's a small minority protesting, it won't change anything. If it's a mass demonstration, maybe there's a reason for it. Maybe the deal shouldn't be done.

> Maybe the deal shouldn't be done.

But that deal is a draft.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#115

Post by witty_username »

Silhouette wrote: post #99
TeMPOraL wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine building a website for a client, and having them hover around you all the time, 24/7, looking at your screen and going: - Oh, why did you put that button in here? What do you mean "temporary"? - Why are you wasting time browsing that "documentation" site instead of writing code? - What is this "class" thing? We're egalitarian company! - Is this Ruby? Everyone knows websites are best done in PHP! Usually you'd…

Have you ever met a client who would let you build the entire site for them, over an extended period during which you're charging for your time, and only on the final day of project present it to them for the first time, offering them only the choices to accept or turn down the site with no options for review or rework?

> you're charging for your time

This is why this analogy is wrong. If a country doesn't accept the TTIP it'll be fine. There's no cost incurred.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#116

Post by witty_username »

izacus wrote: post #52
jokoon wrote: post #43

The issue people are failing to see, is that usually, countries are negotiating against each other, for their own perceived interest. The much valued "rule of law" only applies within countries, not internationally. There are no "international law" for trade. So it's a murky situation from the beginning. I think the TTIP is an attempt to have a common ground to end up with something instead of nothing. Of course ther…

> So it's a murky situation from the beginning. I think the TTIP is an attempt to have a common ground to end up with something instead of nothing. That's the standard rationalization we've been fed form EU comission as well. But when that "something" means that we give up on our EU consumer protection laws to benefit american corporate profits it's actively harmful and against the values of people actually living in…

> our EU consumer protection laws to benefit american corporate profits it's actively harmful

Could you elaborate on why it's actively harmful?

Also, what does actively harmful mean? What is the difference between actively and passively harmful?

> values of people actually living in EU.

People vote for representatives who vote for/against the TTIP.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#117

Post by wildmusings »

pluma wrote: post #48
wildmusings wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, and it allows the negotiating countries to save face when they make compromises. All real diplomacy is done in private for this reason.

By the time elected representatives get to vote on the deal, the decision boils down to "completely reject it" or "accept it as-is and hope that maybe some of the concerns will be noticed and adjustments will be made". And considering how politics work there's a huge incentive not to make the entire deal fail that far into the process.

In the US, that's the intended design. The President negotiates treaties and the Senate ratifies them in an up or down vote.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#118

Post by StavrosK »

BjoernKW wrote: post #22
StavrosK wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offtopic, but does anyone else find Lovecraft too over-the-top? I know that many people like him, but it gets tiresome that everything is nameless, frightful, indescribable, hideous, hellish, monstrous, indescribable, etc. He's not very subtle at all with his descriptions, even a house that was previously established as super creepy gets an "abominable" when referring to it. I found him so over the top that I wanted…

Someone once said that Lovecraft suffered from adjectivitis. I'm fond of his writing and have read pretty much all of his stories but I get the point. Especially when reading several Lovecraft stories in quick succession they can seem repetitive. I'm surprised words like 'mongrel' aren't featured more prominently in that word cloud. His blatant racism really detracts from some of his otherwise great stories. It's par…

Yeah, I saw the word "nigger" show up in the diagram, so I went and had a look. In "The Rats in the Walls" the author has a cat called "Nigger-man", but that was a proper name so I removed it (I removed all proper names).

Also, I think you're spot on with adjectivitis. It explains exactly what I don't like about his stories.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#119

Post by bobwaycott »

julianj wrote: post #90
bobwaycott wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Not at all. Not even in the slightest. This states rights bullshit started in the South as a defensive move to toss a more palatable, quasi-theoretical veneer on what was an unmitigated Southern revolt against the United States because of overt distaste at losing federal support and protection for continuing the practice of slavery. This exposed Southern dependence upon it as a basis for its economy and entire wa…

I see what you're saying. I don't disagree that there have been actions taken by states under the guise of state's rights that could be considered horrible. However, the true concept of states rights is more than something randomly invented by southerners. This idea is based on the 10th Amendment of the Constitution.

The comment I was responding to, and the particular matter I was addressing, had little to do with the 10th Amendment. Nor did I suggest the concept of states' rights as separate and important from those enumerated by the Constitution to the federal government was a concept invented by Southerners. I was quite specifically responding to the revisionist nonsense that the Civil War was a fight over states' rights, and a war of Northern aggression, as Confederate apologists today continue to like to suggest.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#120

Post by bobwaycott »

colechristensen wrote: post #107
narrowrail wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what you think of the "community rights" movement currently underway that is attempting to curtail hydraulic fracturing?

Instead of talking about setting safety and environmental impact boundaries (and allowing everything within them), people are screaming BAN FRACKING. But it gets worse. Instead of talking about banning specific resource extraction methods, people are talking about "community rights", which don't exist. http://celdf.org/community-rights/ These people are ridiculous. Invoking the American revolution and then railing ag…

> The basic problem is that the activists are idiots who haven't taken the time or gotten the education to understand the problems they are trying to solve. National attention has no time for complex nuanced arguments, so the only arguments you hear are from fools. This applies to more or less every liberal cause in America, most of which I support in spirit.

Too true. However, I'd say this actually applies to just about every social-political cause, period. Conservative and liberal. All nuance and depth of understanding is lost for emotional, myopic, black-and-white tribalism meant to divide the populace, fire up the troops, and get them firing at each other.

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