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How America Uses Its Land

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Re: How America Uses Its Land

#101

Post by beambot »

PakG1 wrote: post #95
jaggederest wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the Oregon high desert is really good at being high desert. Does the Mojave have to be useful to humans to be a valuable thing?

I believe so. Other organisms don't really seem to have a concept of value, which would imply they're willing to make trades. Any organism that gathers things seems to hoard at best without any idea what it would trade for what it's hoarding.

> Other organisms don't really seem to have a concept of value.

To first-order approximations, most living creatures seem to value their lives & habitat.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#102

Post by Spooky23 »

komali2 wrote: post #66
bscphil wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the usual claim is that almost any other use at all would be better for the environment than cattle grazing.

I don't understand why - better being "more natural," right? Those plains have been feeding grazing animals for millennia, what should we do differently?

It’s a religious argument that cannot be won or lost.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#103

Post by 13of40 »

jobu wrote: post #37
tcbawo wrote: post #18

How about a private company (Weyerhaeuser) owning 12.4 million acres of timberlands. It's about twice the size of Maryland!

Growing timber like Weyerhaeuser does should probably be counted as cropland. They grow mono-culture trees the same way most farmers grow corn, but instead of harvesting every year it's every couple decades. The very last line is what bothers me the most: "since 2008 the amount of land owned by the 100 largest private landowners has grown from 28 million acres to 40 million, an area larger than the state of Florida."…

I think they actually do get a property tax break because it's farmland.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#104

Post by tspike »

jay-anderson wrote: post #24
cwingrav wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of that land out West is too dry for many trees. There are some really interesting experiments for improving scrub plant growth using wavy rollers (water collects at bottom of rippled soil), but the fuel to plow that much land would probably do more harm than good.

Yes! I think a lot of people miss the water part. The land will not grow a lot of the plants we eat or large trees without irrigation. However cows and other animals can eat the scrub that grows there naturally so it makes some sense to raise cattle in these areas. It'd be interesting to see that pasture range broken out a bit more (feed lots, open grazing land, etc.). That said, I'm all for lowering our overall meat…

I was under the impression cattle require a lot of water, is that incorrect?

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#105

Post by perfmode »

hueving wrote: post #99
jaggederest wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the Oregon high desert is really good at being high desert. Does the Mojave have to be useful to humans to be a valuable thing?

>Does the Mojave have to be useful to humans to be a valuable thing? Yes, humans are the only creatures we know of with the concept of valuing land.

huh? do other creatures not inhabit space?

does a creature need to have a concept of value in order to value things?

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#106

Post by scruple »

jmspring wrote: post #42
hirundo wrote: post #30

> More than one-third of U.S. land is used for pasture ... There’s a single, major occupant on all this land: cows. Not here. I live on cow range land, but the cattle are outnumbered by elk. The elk hunting industry here is larger than the cattle industry. Every third local seems to be a hunting guide, and many of those are cow growers too. This seems to me to be a very positive thing that should be encouraged. Inste…

I live in a rural community where within the county and neighboring counties, cattle is a big deal. That said, the cows up here are fat and happy and have space to roam. Compare to the cattle pastures in the central valley where the cows are skinny and kept in small areas with limited space to roam. One thing that surprised me moving up here, and this is something I didn't realize re: laws around food, availabiliyt o…

I'm familiar with Mojave Road. Are you saying that there active cattle ranches out there still today? I really had no idea, I had thought they had all shut down by now...

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#107

Post by black_puppydog »

jaggederest wrote: post #91
davidw wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but some of it... it's really just like this: https://goo.gl/maps/rQjoQWY9Svu It doesn't support many cattle, but that's about all you can do with it, and there are better places for 'outdoor activities'. Cattle do need to be managed so as to allow the native species (sage grouse for instance) to thrive.

I'm pretty sure the Oregon high desert is really good at being high desert. Does the Mojave have to be useful to humans to be a valuable thing?

wow that's some whacky camera mount. For a second there I thought this was the world's steepest desert 0_o

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#108

Post by wincy »

Aloha wrote: post #77
torpfactory wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a pretty significant diversion of land from a natural state though. Cattle grazing, thought it isn’t an ecological disaster like dam building, is quite different than leaving the land untouched. Plus, a good portion of the country’s good farmland is diverted to growing feed for those animals. Think of it like: how many acres have been changed from a natural ecosystem to an artificial one for meat eating.

The lands natural state was grazing lands - before we killed off the millions of buffalo that lived there to try to starve native Americans into reservations. The most unnatural use of the great plains is farming, arguably, and farming was the singular cause of the dust bowl.

Hey but on the bright side all the unnatural farming did kill the largest locust brood of all time.

http://www.historynet.com/1874-the-year-of-the-locust.htm

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#109

Post by AngryData »

pathseeker wrote: post #20
torpfactory wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a pretty significant diversion of land from a natural state though. Cattle grazing, thought it isn’t an ecological disaster like dam building, is quite different than leaving the land untouched. Plus, a good portion of the country’s good farmland is diverted to growing feed for those animals. Think of it like: how many acres have been changed from a natural ecosystem to an artificial one for meat eating.

>Cattle grazing, thought it isn’t an ecological disaster like dam building, is quite different than leaving the land untouched. Leaving the land untouched is even more 'ecologically privileged' than using it to make expensive food. >Plus, a good portion of the country’s good farmland is diverted to growing feed for those animals. Growing feed (hay/grass) is much easier than growing things like almonds. If a farmer co…

Growing alfalfa has the added benefit of fertilizing the soil. Many farmers are willing to accept a small loss on hay production because it means less fossil-fuel derived fertilizer they need to buy for next year's cash crops and higher yields on those cash crops.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#110

Post by AngryData »

tspike wrote: post #104
jay-anderson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! I think a lot of people miss the water part. The land will not grow a lot of the plants we eat or large trees without irrigation. However cows and other animals can eat the scrub that grows there naturally so it makes some sense to raise cattle in these areas. It'd be interesting to see that pasture range broken out a bit more (feed lots, open grazing land, etc.). That said, I'm all for lowering our overall meat…

I was under the impression cattle require a lot of water, is that incorrect?

They drink a decent bit, but most of the calculated water usage comes from the water used to grow alfalfa and feed.
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