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Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

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Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#101

Post by crush-n-spread »

ithinkinstereo wrote: post #96

It's 10x sad because she's an Asian female (most of the victims are either Asian or another minority group). Unfortunately there is a lot of self-hating and white-is-right mentality among Asians. Why do you think so many westerners goto Asia to "teach" English? Edit: this is an un-PC opinion and casting a wide net, so downvote all you want, but this is well documented and discussed online. And if you've traveled thro…

  Why do you think so many westerners goto Asia to "teach" English?
I think they go there mostly to experience a culture totally foreign to them. The food and lifestyle is cheap, it's very beautiful, and quite safe.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#102

Post by jacquesm »

pikachuaintcool wrote: post #95
jacquesm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problematically ambiguous comment.

I mean, I don't know the guy. Maybe all this lynching is justified, maybe it isn't. But all I can glean from this article is that the woman who wrote it is blowing her interactions with him a bit out of proportion. Mind you, I've experienced my fair share of sexual assault as well. To me, this is just some guy who has no game who came off a bit too strongly. Regardless, he has some learning to do.

> But all I can glean from this article is that the woman who wrote it is blowing her interactions with him a bit out of proportion.

Where do you get this from? It read pretty factual and dry to me.

It also puts the lie to his statement about that other encounter that he 'misread the situation', there clearly was no misreading the situation here and yet he persisted, twice.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#103

Post by Zikes »

pikachuaintcool wrote: post #97
Zikes wrote: post #87

> Generalized sexist statements and behavior that convey insulting or degrading attitudes about women (e.g. Insulting remarks, obscene jokes or humor about sex or women in general) This should be generalized to include both sexes. I often see insulting or degrading comments about men by people in the tech world, especially with terms like "mansplaining".

How about we generalize them to include neither sex? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

That's exactly what I'm proposing, just change the wording to "Generalized sexist statements and behavior that convey insulting or degrading attitudes", removing the "about women" part.

Yet here I sit at -3 points for suggesting I deserve the same protections.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#104

Post by Insanity »

jacquesm wrote: post #6
Insanity wrote: post #4

It is unfortunate that these kind of things happen. They shed a bad light on our industry as a whole due to (hopefully a few) rotten apples. Thanks for writing this, takes courage!

> a few) rotten apples. Wow, that's really incredible optimism. I'd be more than happy if there was a 50/50 split between the kinds of apples but I fear that it is more along the lines of 20/80 or worse based on what I see and hear around me when no women are within earshot.

Could be due to the location. Might be different in different countries. In the places I have worked (always women in the team, startup and more enterprise-world), I never seen sexism happen apart from once.

Of course there is the problem that it could be hidden (IMs or whatnot). Hence my optimism :-)

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#105

Post by tptacek »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #91
jacquesm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell someone to leave (NOW!) after they indicate they want to sleep in your bedroom when they've been offered the couch and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. When someone has sex with another person without their permission it is rape .

> and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. The US Justice Department doesn't construe a forced kiss as sexual assault: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the…

This isn't how you evaluate whether something is criminal in the United States. Virtually all sexual assault (or sexual battery, depending on the jurisdiction) is prosecuted under state statutes. In many states, any coerced sexual touching done for the purposes of gratification constitutes sexual battery. If you search for cases, you will indeed find forced kisses on the mouth prosecuted.

Obviously, the physical coercion McClure used to trap this woman against a wall is, even without the sexual component, itself an assault

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#106

Post by gizmo686 »

_wmd wrote: post #82
jacquesm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell someone to leave (NOW!) after they indicate they want to sleep in your bedroom when they've been offered the couch and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. When someone has sex with another person without their permission it is rape .

I'm by no means a burly red-blooded gentleman, but I can't think of any example from my previous relationships that did not start with either myself or the other making a move which could later have been construed as assault. Of course adding context to all those situations, it's easy to see that I or the recipient would in all probability welcome the advance, and so it is not assault, however the fine line between "…

You seem to be identify a valid problem of defining "assault". This is a real problem, and something that policy makers will need to tackle at all levels, but it is not what is being discussed. After someone responds to your request to sleep with them by asking you to leave, you have left the realm of ambiguity.

If you are hanging out with a friend and start getting a bit handsy, then I could see the grey area. But it the cases where it is not wanted, a simple "no", or movement away, or pushing his hands off, etc would be enough to clarify where the line is, and ignoring that would turn it into unambiguous assault.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#107

Post by pandler »

crush-n-spread wrote: post #101
ithinkinstereo wrote: post #96

It's 10x sad because she's an Asian female (most of the victims are either Asian or another minority group). Unfortunately there is a lot of self-hating and white-is-right mentality among Asians. Why do you think so many westerners goto Asia to "teach" English? Edit: this is an un-PC opinion and casting a wide net, so downvote all you want, but this is well documented and discussed online. And if you've traveled thro…

Why do you think so many westerners goto Asia to "teach" English? I think they go there mostly to experience a culture totally foreign to them. The food and lifestyle is cheap, it's very beautiful, and quite safe.

This. I find it hard to believe the entire "teach English in Asia" industry is fueled by people who base their decision on some fantasy to have sex with Asians (or just their students? I'm not sure what they are implying), and it certainly doesn't mesh with my experience of English teachers abroad.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#108

Post by at-fates-hands »

ithinkinstereo wrote: post #84
drefanzor wrote: post #2

Beyond creepy. It seems he has a pattern of this behavior, and I'm wondering how often he succeeds in his hunt. Thanks for getting your story out!

Enough to keep on doing it year after year after year.

Which is the part that puzzles me. Successful guy, plenty of money. Get a high priced call girl, go on a sex site and get a woman who wants what you want. I mean I used to be in a band and it was easy to have a woman in nearly every city you could call when you feel lonely.

If he was after something deeper, hire a dating consultant and find something worthwhile.

It just amazes me that people who have both the means and ability to get what they want do foolish stuff like he's doing.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#109

Post by jacquesm »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #91
jacquesm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell someone to leave (NOW!) after they indicate they want to sleep in your bedroom when they've been offered the couch and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. When someone has sex with another person without their permission it is rape .

> and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. The US Justice Department doesn't construe a forced kiss as sexual assault: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the…

"Usually a sexual assault occurs when someone touches any part of another person's body in a sexual way, even through clothes, without that person's consent."

A forced kiss could definitely be interpreted in that way, especially after being told to get lost.

The involvement of 'sex organs' is optional.

Let's parse that statement that you quoted:

> Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.

Lack of consent: check

Sexual contact or behavior: check

Note the 'any type'.

> Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape

Force: check

These are things that definitely fall under the term sexual assault, and a kiss goes quite a bit further than 'fondling', especially if it has already been indicated that such a kiss - and then there are kinds of kisses - is not welcome.

If I was on the defending side I'd hate to have to try to present the McClure case in a way that it might end up in this bracket, possibly that list is exhaustive and as long as the word 'kiss' isn't in the list you might get into 'sexual battery' but frankly I think that's just terminology, if the lady felt assaulted I don't fault her for picking the wrong narrow legal term and I suspect that in plenty of places the judge would see it in the same way.

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