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A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#151
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just possibly more than any previous president. Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined. He has also used the Espionage Act more than all previous Presidents combined.

I would love to see both of these facts along with citations in an easy to read single page document. Are you counting Chelsea Manning in those numbers?

I figured the info would be easy enough to source with a quick search, as everyone has different sources they prefer to trust and I didn't want to make it about the source since it's all public record anyway. For example, if you like Jon Stewart, you can get it from him, but if he rubs you the wrong way, you can find the information elsewhere.

I did post a link in response to another comment here, but I'd still recommend doing your own research for the big picture. The war on whistleblowers is a very recent development in US history, and no previous administration has come down in the same way as this one.

This is partially a reflection of modern technology because information is so much easier to distribute today but also because the level of serveillance carried out by the government requires keeping more secrets than ever.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#152

I have doubts whether Edward Snowden would get a fair open trial, with a jury of his peers. Serious doubts. The entire Snowden affair reminds me very much of Daniel Ellsberg. At the time Ellsberg was condemed by many (especially in the military industrial complex) as a traitor but now I think that just about everyone believes that Ellsberg did a good thing for our country and society. I think that history will look k…

> I think that history will look kindly at Snowden I don't. As much as I want it to, and as much as the HN group wants to, the crazy (sad) thing is that a vast number of Americans not only do not know who he is[1], but those that do are polarized as to whether he did the right thing or not[2] - he barely won a majority vote of the minority who even know who he is. [1] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/06/joh…

Fortunately, the average American will not be writing the history of the early 21st century. Just imagine how horrible our understanding of past events would be if that was the case. And there's a number of people we idolize today that were demonized by the government of their time; take Martin Luther King for instance.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (such as ancient athens) the citizens get to vote the laws directly and public officials are held accountable for their actions.

So let me get this straight. You want the same people who voted for Palin and are saying yes to a Trump president in the polls to decide policy? The thing is that as awful as our current congress is, at least it's their job and responsibility to come up with policy and vote on it. In severe cases you can call them out on it and they can face certain consequences. If voting on policy was to be done by the masses you'd…

No. I want you to pull your head out of your ass and realize that if elections ever changed anything they'd be outlawed. The game is rigged from the start.

Switzerland is a semi democracy. In Switzerland, People are allowed to organize a vote to reject laws and to enact laws. And there's nothing public officials can do about it. They are powerless against popular vote. The only thing the oligarchs can do in Switzerland is to manipulate opinion through the media. In certain Swiss cantons, common people gather four times a year on the canton's capital town square and vote laws by raising their hand. It seems like the "masses of uninformed people" in Switzerland are doing a better job than your mafioso leaders of whatever stripe because Switzerland has a much higher standard of living than the U.S. and incidentally has never waged war on anyone even having no oil reserves at all. Note also that democracy in Athens lasted for two centuries, which is longer than any of the today's republics and was one of the most powerful city-state of the time. So much for "direct democracy" not working. So now, please, don't bother with the usual parroting of platitudes (such as "human nature") and go educate yourself.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#154
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (such as ancient athens) the citizens get to vote the laws directly and public officials are held accountable for their actions.

I'll just refer to one of my comments from 3 years ago, because this "democracy vs republic" thing is one of my pet-hate American myths. "This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy wit…

When you've studied the roman republic and the athenian democracy it's obvious how the two systems are fundamentally different and have nothing to do with each other. And then you understand why early french and U.S. revolutionaries such as Madison were against democracy and wanted a republic because they knew that in the roman republic unlike in democratic athens, the wealthy ruled. The only one spreading myths here is you.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#155
post #100

I have doubts whether Edward Snowden would get a fair open trial, with a jury of his peers. Serious doubts. The entire Snowden affair reminds me very much of Daniel Ellsberg. At the time Ellsberg was condemed by many (especially in the military industrial complex) as a traitor but now I think that just about everyone believes that Ellsberg did a good thing for our country and society. I think that history will look k…

Chelsea Manning was basically driven insane before even getting to trial. Held naked in solitary confinement, in a cell not much bigger than a closet, and forced to stand for most of the day as to not be able to sleep. That prosecutors would stack the jury is almost immaterial - life changing punishment would be inflicted before even getting to that point.

This is worth pointing out. Despite Obama's criticism of Guantanamo Bay (in words only; actions are still lacking), it's important that we remember that Chelsea Manning was tortured on his watch.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#156
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what definition of 'whistleblower'?

As someone that exposes irregularities in government activity. Bradley Manning just dumped standard diplomatic cables. Very few of which contained information that was not "diplomacy usual"

There is a huge difference between Manning and Snowden. While I'm sure Manning meant well, and some of the documents absolutely justified whistleblowing, she was sloppy and careless and simply handed over the entire thing to someone else.

Snowden keeps control, works with reliable people, and only releases things that need to be released. Snowden, much more than Manning and Assange, is the kind of hero we need.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#157
A strong implicit presumption behind Snowden's motives, right or wrong, is that the justice system is sufficiently rigged by the state that he would not receive a fair hearing here.

It's also very reasonable to suppose, as he did, that going about things in the manner that he did was the only way to achieve his stated mission, since, by definition, what he wanted to publicise was highly classified. The downsides for himself, and to whatever extent for diplomacy and national security, were worth it in his eyes. Thus, the idea that he should have instead "[c]hallenge[d] it, [spoken] out, engage[d] in a constructive act of protest" is facile gibberish, and, as to the idea that he should face the consequences in a trial by a jury of his peers, it would be akin to sheep negotiating with the wolves. What was he going to do, hold up a banner that says "[redacted]"?

By the same token, it's ludicrous to expect the American state to pardon Snowden, with or without a petition. Snowden has irretrievably made himself a sworn enemy of the American national security state. The state could not possibly allow its legitimacy and legal supremacy to be undermined by his actions. His situation is not unlike that of politically persecuted activists elsewhere.

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