A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden • Hacker News Board

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#111

Post by callesgg » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 4:09 PM UTC

Not unexpected.

It is easy to blame the the administration for the response. But it is not them it is the way the system is setup.(Well it is them to, and they are legitimately scared)

Just as if Snowden had challenged it (i cite)"Challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest" he would just have got fired and ignored(or worse), the people in the government is generally in the same seat.

I think they could have mentioned some numbers of what the NSA actually does stop instead of empty threats of a dangerous world.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#112

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

NullCharacter wrote: post #93

venomsnake wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First - no one has quantified what exactly Snowden has. Second so far only the western media have had access to the files. Third there was not any proof that he had copy of the information while he was in Hong Kong.

If you think the Chinese/Russian intelligence services haven't managed to get their hands on the entirety of what Snowden took I think you underestimate their prowess. A few Western journalists in their flats and offices does not a secure facility for storing highly classified information make.

Given the apparent security practices where Snowden worked, I expect the Chinese/Russian intelligence services already had the entirety of what Snowden took.

"A few Western journalists in their flats and offices does not a secure facility for storing highly classified information make."

They might have done better if the NSA had not been deliberately undermining our ability to secure ourselves.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#113

Post by shmerl » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

> Instead of constructively addressing these issues, Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it.

So it's an admission that they view unconstitutional surveillance as necessary for security? That's too bad. Because that surveillance is exactly what got "severe consequences" as in being challenged.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#114

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 4:37 PM UTC

"If he felt his actions were consistent with civil disobedience, then he should do what those who have taken issue with their own government do: Challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest, and -- importantly -- accept the consequences of his actions. He should come home to the United States, and be judged by a jury of his peers -- not hide behind the cover of an authoritarian regime. Right now, he's running away from the consequences of his actions."

Horseshit. He's been in effective exile for longer than Martin Luther King, Jr spent in jail, totaled over his entire life. What are the odds that Snowden is facing the same order of magnitude in terms of explicit punishment?

Moreover, when MLK received a sentence of 6 months hard labor following the Greensboro sit-ins, JFK and RFK intervened to get him released early.

"In October 1960 Atlanta student leaders convinced King to participate in a sit-in at Rich’s, a local department store. King and about 300 students were arrested. The students were later released, but King remained in jail while Georgia ofﬁcials determined whether his sit-in arrest violated parole conditions King had received a month earlier after driving with a suspended license. After being sentenced to six months of hard labor at Georgia State Prison at Reidsville, presidential hopeful John F. Kennedy and his campaign manager and brother, Robert Kennedy, helped secure King’s release. Their intervention in the case helped contribute to Kennedy’s narrow victory over Richard Nixon in the presidential election."

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/encycloped...

But apparently MLK doesn't know how to do civil disobedience, and the Obama administration would rather identify with his captors than with JFK.

Finally, speaking of "the consequences" as if they're something natural and not something the Obama administration has direct and unilateral control over is disingenuous. If Obama issued a pardon, Snowden will have received all of the punishment the law requires. Snowden is not demanding a pardon - he is facing punishment (albeit not the ridiculously overwrought punishment you had in mind). We are demanding he be pardoned.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#115

Post by kitwalker12 » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

amazing how the response is about the consequences of HIS actions while the government did diddly-squat about their own

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#116

Post by basch » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #51

cgearhart wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is my understanding that the Espionage Act does not allow for an affirmative defense -- so Snowden can't claim that he was justified in releasing the materials, rather he can only dispute the facts as presented by the prosecution. But since we all pretty much agree about the facts of the case, the outcome is predictable. It would be "fair and open" in some sense, I guess, but the game is rigged. (Not to say that h…

As I tried to point out below, this is exactly the situation jury nullification was designed for. Guilty under the law, but pardoned by a jury of his peers.

jury nullification isnt designed, it is a byproduct of the system. it is a consequence of the arrangement, not a purposeful inclusion.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#117

Post by jgrowl » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 5:32 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #61

austerity wrote: post #49

Why do people who use the "face the consequences of his actions" argument consider it so self-evident? Accepting an unjust punishment for your good deeds isn't somehow more noble than escaping it. And not just an unjust punishment but an unjust punishment in the hands of the very institution whose corruption you exposed. Government lecturing us on proper civil disobedience is ironic to put it very mildly.

It's basically saying martyrdom is the one true path to change. According to this statement, if we want justice, "blood" must be spilled.

It's like Jefferson said... "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

This isn't a one way street.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#118

Post by ewzimm » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #77

titzer wrote: post #31

The pervasive surveillance activities of the government are one thing; one could kind of expect it in the absence of law or a constitution. But it's not just that. The deliberate activities to undermine, weaken, and even ban encryption and the very foundations for secure communications is just plain dirty. It's clear that the thrust of these programs was never the best interest of the public, but furtherance of espio…

The Obama Administration has aggressively muzzled and prosecuted whistleblowers, possibly more than any previous president. It's remarkable that he would invite people to blow the whistle, given that sorry record.

It's not just possibly more than any previous president. Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined. He has also used the Espionage Act more than all previous Presidents combined.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#119

Post by greenNote » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #15

"Published Date: Jun 09, 2013" (Note: It had the minimum response signatures within a very short time period, too) Thanks for writing something 2+ years ago, here's some talking points based on our current administration objectives.

True, when I got the email this morning as a response, I had forgotten that I signed the petition. For a few moments I thought something good was going to be published.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#120

Post by vessenes » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 6:39 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #95

vessenes wrote: post #37

Interesting messaging about Russia; that's probably the most interesting thing about the whole note to me. Russia = authoritarian regime. I wonder when the US state department started approving messaging like that about Russia.

There are a whole bunch of recent US geopolitical actions that are interesting to look at through the lens of lessening Russian influence. When US national policy is pretty much to undermine the Russian economy I'm not sure how worried the White House should be about how a particular statement gets parsed.

Well, I would term it more that policy is curbing re-emergence of a soviet-like political power. But, it's one thing to go quietly pursue cold-war style influence mongering. It's another to take that mongering out into the 'real world' of press releases words..