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A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#121

Post by maxerickson »

vessenes wrote: post #120
maxerickson wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a whole bunch of recent US geopolitical actions that are interesting to look at through the lens of lessening Russian influence. When US national policy is pretty much to undermine the Russian economy I'm not sure how worried the White House should be about how a particular statement gets parsed.

Well, I would term it more that policy is curbing re-emergence of a soviet-like political power. But, it's one thing to go quietly pursue cold-war style influence mongering. It's another to take that mongering out into the 'real world' of press releases words..

Yeah, that's what people say, I just don't really get it. Kneecapping their economy is a lot more aggressive than any level of bluster or bravado, and has not been all that secretive in implementation (i.e., overt sanctions on economic sectors and particular individuals).

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#122

Post by dragonwriter »

plonh wrote: post #63
SCAQTony wrote: post #32

One thing is certain about the petition process, It has proven to be ineffectual and a complete farce unless it is about "Star Wars day" or "pardoning" a turkey in November.

The petition process has one purpose, to provide an outlet for short attention span outrage, in a forum that poses 0 threat to the White House.

> The petition process has one purpose, to provide an outlet for short attention span outrage, in a forum that poses 0 threat to the White House.

Writing to the White House directly already provided such an outlet; what the newer formalized petition process does is two things:

1) It provides an incentive to aggregating related requests, providing an economy in reviewing and responding, and

2) Provides visibility to the requests and responses, which frequently serve as a focal point for organizing by the groups interested in the subject matter of the request.

(#2, if anything, increases the potential political cost compared to the status quo ante to the White House, both from responses and absences of responses.)

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#123

Post by cjsthompson »

toyg wrote: post #73
ionised wrote: post #48

This is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever read. > Since taking office, President Obama has worked with Congress to secure appropriate reforms that balance the protection of civil liberties with the ability of national security professionals to secure information vital to keep Americans safe. Yes of course he has. > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe conseque…

> "We have heard your voices and grievances and honestly couldn't give two shits about what you think. You have no power here." Isn't that the answer to all petitions? Petitions are just pleas to the king. It is in the king's prerogatives to ignore them. What you need in a democratic society is not petitions, but acts of parliament.

That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (such as ancient athens) the citizens get to vote the laws directly and public officials are held accountable for their actions.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#124

Post by dragonwriter »

teekert wrote: post #62
ionised wrote: post #48

This is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever read. > Since taking office, President Obama has worked with Congress to secure appropriate reforms that balance the protection of civil liberties with the ability of national security professionals to secure information vital to keep Americans safe. Yes of course he has. > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe conseque…

> Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it. As you say, where is the prove and also: He did not disclose the documents, respected journalistic institutions did. He did not just leak anything and everything. He did the right thing. This response is an insult to everybody…

> He did not disclose the documents, respected journalistic institutions did.

How did the "respected journalistic institutions" get them if Snowden didn't disclose them once he had gotten them?

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#125

Post by dragonwriter »

ewzimm wrote: post #118
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Obama Administration has aggressively muzzled and prosecuted whistleblowers, possibly more than any previous president. It's remarkable that he would invite people to blow the whistle, given that sorry record.

It's not just possibly more than any previous president. Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined. He has also used the Espionage Act more than all previous Presidents combined.

> Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined.

I strongly doubt that public records show that people sentenced were whistleblowers, or that the President sentenced them.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#126

Post by [deleted] »

ewzimm wrote: post #118
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Obama Administration has aggressively muzzled and prosecuted whistleblowers, possibly more than any previous president. It's remarkable that he would invite people to blow the whistle, given that sorry record.

It's not just possibly more than any previous president. Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined. He has also used the Espionage Act more than all previous Presidents combined.

[deleted]

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#127

Post by ewzimm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #125
ewzimm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just possibly more than any previous president. Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined. He has also used the Espionage Act more than all previous Presidents combined.

> Public records show that he has sentenced whistleblowers to 25 times the jail time of all previous Presidents combined. I strongly doubt that public records show that people sentenced were whistleblowers, or that the President sentenced them.

I'm sure you understood that I meant his administration prosecuted whistleblowers leading to sentencing. I was just quoting this article to make it easy for anyone who wanted to look it up:

http://econintersect.com/b2evolution/blog1.php/2015/01/26/ob...

If you'd like more detail, here's the first source linked in the article:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/leak-prosecutions-obama-takes-it-1...

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#128

Post by elheffe80 »

ionised wrote: post #48

This is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever read. > Since taking office, President Obama has worked with Congress to secure appropriate reforms that balance the protection of civil liberties with the ability of national security professionals to secure information vital to keep Americans safe. Yes of course he has. > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe conseque…

> > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it.

> Has it? Has it really? Where's the proof of this?

While not a general decline in the companies values, or stock, there has been an international backlash against US Tech companies[1, 2]. To say that these companies don't provide for the security, financially, of our country is a crock of shit. As for how the people that protect our country and work day in and day out to protect it being affected- you really thing the CIA is going to post about how their personnel got caught, or detained, or anything at all? No. You won't. Granted, a lack of proof is not proof itself, but open your eyes a bit and think about it. Snowden revealed all sorts of information that he should not have.

> Hmm yes. All those civil libereties groups, charities, foreign businesses and allied politicians you spied on sure are dangerous. Got to keep them in check lest they attack America with their ball-point pens!

Keep your enemies close and your friends closer. Everything but the allies I agree with you on, but I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping tabs on the policies of allied countries.

1- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/edward-snowden-tech... 2- http://allthingsd.com/20131214/shareholder-suit-accuses-ibm-...

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#129

Post by caskance »

Zikes wrote: post #51
cgearhart wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is my understanding that the Espionage Act does not allow for an affirmative defense -- so Snowden can't claim that he was justified in releasing the materials, rather he can only dispute the facts as presented by the prosecution. But since we all pretty much agree about the facts of the case, the outcome is predictable. It would be "fair and open" in some sense, I guess, but the game is rigged. (Not to say that h…

As I tried to point out below, this is exactly the situation jury nullification was designed for. Guilty under the law, but pardoned by a jury of his peers.

This is exactly the case a pardon is designed for.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#130

Post by [deleted] »

srj wrote: post #100
mark_l_watson wrote: post #18

I have doubts whether Edward Snowden would get a fair open trial, with a jury of his peers. Serious doubts. The entire Snowden affair reminds me very much of Daniel Ellsberg. At the time Ellsberg was condemed by many (especially in the military industrial complex) as a traitor but now I think that just about everyone believes that Ellsberg did a good thing for our country and society. I think that history will look k…

Chelsea Manning was basically driven insane before even getting to trial. Held naked in solitary confinement, in a cell not much bigger than a closet, and forced to stand for most of the day as to not be able to sleep. That prosecutors would stack the jury is almost immaterial - life changing punishment would be inflicted before even getting to that point.

[deleted]
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