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In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

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Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#271

Post by mikeash »

Evolved wrote: post #234
mikeash wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judge each person's criminal case on their own merits. If neither the civilian nor the cop can be proven to have committed a crime, they should both go free. Civil cases, on the other hand, merely need to meet the standard of "a preponderance of evidence" to support the claim. A mysteriously malfunctioning camera ought to meet that standard, and thus be grounds for an award of damages due to misconduct. This cost wil…

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of deliberate tampering. The tech is not flawless and this kind of outcome is really not fair to either side. The camera only shows 1 point of view and if for X reasons it is used to judge the officer or the civilian as the overwhelming evidence then it can have severe consequences for either or both sides if it does work or does not work. Example: civilian makes grandiose…

Absence of evidence is evidence of tampering. It is not proof.

The popular phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is wrong. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. How strong that evidence is depends on just how much you'd expect to find evidence if the thing were actually true. For example, if you go looking in my garage for aliens, the absence of evidence is pretty compelling evidence for the absence of aliens in my garage, but it's extremely weak evidence for the absence of aliens in the universe.

When it comes to cameras, the question in how often they fail on their own compared to how likely tampering is, and any relevant context which might modify those basic probabilities. If the demonstrated MTBF is 10 years and your cameras are failing on average once every year then something is going on, for example.

Your mention about punishing the officer makes me wonder if you actually read my comment, though. I explicitly suggested that a camera malfunction should not be considered sufficient to clear the "beyond a reasonable doubt" bar for a criminal case, and that while it should work for a civil case, the cost there would not be borne by the officer.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#272

Post by powertower »

mikeash wrote: post #270
powertower wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The points in the article dispel the myth of the "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" story. It obviously did not go that way at all (e.g., such as not even being shot in the back of the head). The earlier events might, or might not, be relevant to the use of deadly force in a court of law, but they are relevant to my point of the narrative, of the story told to the public - the original comment you are relying to. And yes, garbi…

They may be relevant to your point of the narrative, but my point is that the key question is whether Wilson was justified in his use of deadly force, and the earlier events are not relative to that. That is why the portion of my comment which you quoted says "...has absolutely no relevance to the question of whether Darren Wilson acted correctly ...." (Emphasis added.) Grabbing at a cop's gun may justify deadly forc…

Okay... fair enough.

> It is the drawing of the gun which is the key event here. If he had simply stomped on the gas pedal instead then this whole controversy would have stopped before it started.

5. Wilson said when he tried to open his car door, Brown slammed it back shut, then punched Wilson in the face.

6. Fearing another punch could knock him out, Wilson drew his gun, he told the grand jury, and Brown grabbed the gun, saying "you are too much of a pussy to shoot me."

Like I said, these things happen quickly, there is really not much time to think and analyze. When you feel that your life is in danger, you just respond. Some people get tunnel vision, others don't even form memories.

Some other things that would have prevented this - is every single action that Michael Brown took.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#273

Post by rbcgerard »

It blows my mind that the police would not check with the management office security guard as to whether the unit was currently occupied...what if it had been rented that day?

this feeds into a problem that is a corollary to the above, which is the whole see something/say something mentality with no repercussions for those that call the police on others...

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#274

Post by skeolawn »

Elrac wrote: post #240
adventured wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an incorrect conclusion. Check out the historical murder rate of Appalachia in the US. Extremely high gun ownership, extremely low murder rate. I grew up there, deep in poverty, everyone owned guns, and the murder rate was on par with the best of Europe per 100,000 people. The difference? Cultural. Where I grew up, people simply did not believe in killing each other, period. Desperation was widespread, yet the…

Nice try, poor logic. What you call "people [not believing] in killing each other" is a phenomenon that calls for an explanation. I believe that explanation is simply that there's nothing to be gained from killing a desperately poor person. Appalachia (and other poor rural areas) have no gangs because there's no way to make a profit on organized violence. Gangs and the associated violence happen in cities because tha…

So following that logic, I guess if a "rich" person was to drive through Appalachia they would be inevitably doomed?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#275

Post by javert »

mcherm wrote: post #256
javert wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. They are not exploited.

Of course they are exploited. If I knew your philosophical leanings I could construct an example that would be quite common -- but for all I know you think it is not exploitation to offer jobs for minimum wage with no benefits that offer only 19 hrs a week of work (no benefits) but demand 24/7 availability. So let me use a more extreme example. When individuals are suspected (NOT yet proven) of illegal immigration th…

No, I don't think it's exploitation.

The immigration issue is a different thing entirely.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#276

Post by dllthomas »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #218
dllthomas wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I favor body cameras, I don't think your reasoning here holds up. Even if we assume cops only favor their own safety and power, we would expect to see this policy around high speed chases - they are dangerous for the cops as well.

"They are dangerous for the cops as well" - That's true..but hasn't it always been true? Car speeds haven't meaningfully changed in the last 40-50 years, so it's likely that the danger to civilians and police hasn't particularly changed either. So, if it's true that police agencies are encouraging less dangerous means of achieving the same ends, why now and not before? The change suggests some other factor, and my su…

Eh, maybe. I think decisions need less explanation when they're the right one. Why now? Maybe they just figured it out. Hanlon's razer, &c.

If we need to explain "why now", that's still a question with your hypothesis - high speed chases have been dangerous for a long time, but they have also regularly been filmed for some while now.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#277

Post by mikeash »

powertower wrote: post #272
mikeash wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may be relevant to your point of the narrative, but my point is that the key question is whether Wilson was justified in his use of deadly force, and the earlier events are not relative to that. That is why the portion of my comment which you quoted says "...has absolutely no relevance to the question of whether Darren Wilson acted correctly ...." (Emphasis added.) Grabbing at a cop's gun may justify deadly forc…

Okay... fair enough. > It is the drawing of the gun which is the key event here. If he had simply stomped on the gas pedal instead then this whole controversy would have stopped before it started. 5. Wilson said when he tried to open his car door, Brown slammed it back shut, then punched Wilson in the face. 6. Fearing another punch could knock him out, Wilson drew his gun, he told the grand jury, and Brown grabbed th…

The fact that Brown could have prevented his death by changing any of his actions is true, but irrelevant.

Imagine you insult a person's mother, and in response he gets upset and shoots you. I say, if you hadn't mouthed off then you wouldn't have gotten killed. Is this true? Absolutely. Does it make your death justified? Not in the least.

The fact that these things happen quickly and that you "just respond" is not an excuse for using deadly force when it's not necessary. Police are supposed to be the ones protecting us, not the ones getting us killed. That he killed Michael Brown when he didn't need to is an abject failure on his part. Maybe it was a failure caused by a lack of time to think and a failure caused by an innate response, but it's still a failure. I also have to wonder why Wilson got so close when opening his door in the first place, to someone he knew might be dangerous. If he felt at a disadvantage because he was seated in his car, why not stop some distance away, get out, and confront the suspect on a better footing?

You don't get to engineer a dangerous situation, then use deadly force to eliminate the danger and call it good. The fact that the other person participated somewhat still doesn't justify it. If Wilson had taken more care before he was in the middle of a fight then he wouldn't have been in the position to "just respond" with deadly force in the first place.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#278

Post by cwisecarver »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #26
jowiar wrote: post #23

FWIW Fairfax County, VA is about as rich, white, and suburban place that you can find in the US.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Alexandria, maybe. But Fairfax County is pretty large: it encompasses Annandale, Springfield, and Centreville. Springfield has a heavy latino population, and Centreville and Annandale have like a 25% Asian population. Annandale even has a section called "Little Korea" for pete's sake. To be fair, though, Alexandria is not fair from Arlington, and about the only people who can affo…

I live in Alexandria and I can assure you that I am not a trust fund baby. Only child of a single parent with no college education, self-taught web developer with a decent income.

It is a diverse area. My neighborhood is single-family homes and I would wager half of them are just scraping by. Two blocks in either direction and you'll see abject poverty or McMansions nestled on too little land next to military housing from the 30s.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#279

Post by vacri »

JshWright wrote: post #265
vacri wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal safety is the #1 priority of any emergency worker. If you don't keep yourself safe, then that's one less person to be able to help out. Add to this that there isn't an endless stream of people both willing and able to do the job in the first place, and also that training takes a fair while, and it's clear that self-preservation is a requirement for emergency workers. By all means, question police methods. Bu…

Are you an LEO? "Priority of life" for law enforcement is: 1) Victims 2) Innocent Bystanders 3a) Other Responders (Fire/EMS) 3b) Law Enforcement Officers 4) Bad Guys

"Priority of life" was developed for an 'active shooter' situation, not day-to-day policing. It also doesn't suggest that an officer should take a bullet for someone else, bodyguard style. It's talking about who to protect first, and emergency workers are lower on the list because they have chosen to be there and they generally have the training to deal with the situation.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#280

Post by colechristensen »

michaelt wrote: post #116
colechristensen wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't overlook the very likely strong coupling between the bullets fired 'at' and 'by' police and how it likely goes both ways. People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. This is likely both true at the macro and micro level. That is, police behavior escalates individual situations into shootings which otherwise, with better training, could have en…

People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. Could you add some more detail on this point? I'm having difficulty thinking of a situation I could be in that would be improved by me shooting at the police? I mean, even if they're honest good guy cops surely they'll call in backup and arrest you and make a really enthusiastic effort to put you in jail f…

The idea is to get away. In the long term the police might be more enthusiastic to catch you – and that long term might only be 10 minutes. In the short term though, in this instant, the police are already chasing you. They have you cornered and you don't see a way out of this without surrendering.

You've seen on the news people just like you getting killed in the street by police. You've known people who have been beat bloody in the exact same situation. Even if they don't kill you in the street, you have 30 years in a harsh prison ahead of you.

You have nothing to lose.

---

The idea is to teach police to keep subjects calm and try to convince them that surrendering really is the best outcome. People full of adrenaline don't always make the best decisions. Maybe they've been taking drugs, they've probably got a whole lot of stress in their lives, and possibly some mental illness as well. In a lot of places they're conditioned to think of police as the enemy, and in this situation they're really afraid.

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