In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me • Hacker News Board

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#251

Post by devcpp » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 12:06 PM UTC

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #106

I, for one, get tired of the constant refrain of hero worship while these guys say that there number one job is to get home safely. They are afforded terrible powers to intervene in, and disrupt, someone's life. That trade is made under the assumption that they do a dangerous job. A benefit is afforded to them due to the responsibility that they bear. Obviously, they want to have as much power with as little danger a…

It's more of an offer-and-demand thing. If you don't treat veterans well (and, I mean, get your expectations a lot lower, not look at their actions too hard, and so on), no one will do that job. I know I wouldn't.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#252

Post by wtbob » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 12:08 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #128

vowelless wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. I think that the likelihood of civilians being armed in the US is a lot higher than in Germany, so I can imagine why American cops are a little more paranoid. I've seen cops put a hand on their gun as they approach suspects, which I think is part of the training here. I…

Germany has 30 guns per 100 people. The US has 88. It's the rate of violence that is dramatically different, and not nearly as much the per capita gun ownership rate.

The vast majority of U.S. guns are in private collections and don't kill or threaten anyone.

The U.S. doesn't have a gun problem; we have a violence problem. If one magically made every single firearm disappear tomorrow, the murder rate would still be ridiculously high, because we'd still be finding ways to murder one another.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#253

Post by wtbob » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 12:42 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #52

an_ko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

"Enough" in that you have people on HN saying pretty much that most of the black people who get shot and killed by police deserved it and that black people are stupid violent criminals so it's no wonder they get killed so often, and that if only they were docile and compliant in the face of police harassment they wouldn't get shot so much. It's fucking weird seeing that stuff on HN, and it's scary to think how those…

> you have people on HN saying pretty much that most of the black people who get shot and killed by police deserved it and that black people are stupid violent criminals so it's no wonder they get killed so often

I haven't seen anyone say anything so nasty, but I have seen the FBI's crime statistics:

    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

Blacks make up 13.2% of the population, yet are arrested for 49.4% of the murders (3.7x their share), 32.5% of the forcible rapes (2.4x), 54.9% of the robberies (4.1x), 34.1% of the aggravated assaults (2.5x), 38.5% of the violent arson (2.9x) and 31.9% of other assaults (2.4x). The numbers for whites (77.1% of the population) are 48.2% of the murders (.6x),

Now, it's important to note that the explanation is almost certainly due to poverty and class; class in America being unfortunately highly correlated with race. It's also important to note there are almost certainly structural factors which protect some whites from being fairly arrested and lead to some blacks being unfairly arrested.

Given those violent crime statistics, is it not understandable that people in a potentially violent situation fear more for their lives when facing a random black, who is approximately 6.1 times more likely to commit murder than a random white?

And in fact, adjusted for the racial disparity in homicides, the police are 1.7 times more likely to kill whites than blacks; adjusted for the racial disparity in cop-killing, the police are 1.3 times more likely to kill whites than blacks[1].

'Black people' are not 'stupid violent criminals,' and anyone who says so is a racist idiot. But a higher percentage of black people are violent criminals, and thus it's no wonder that a higher percentage (but fewer absolutely, and fewer adjusted for the higher rate of crime!) get killed for violent crime.

Now, how does one reduce the racial disparity (by reducing the rate of black criminality to that of white criminality, not vice versa, I hope)? That's really tough to answer. Maybe it has something to do with ending the War on Some Drugs, which takes fathers away from their families; maybe it involves basic income, which would eliminate poverty; maybe it involves school choice and/or vouchers, to enable blacks to escape terrible schools and get good educations; maybe it involves using social persuasion to reduce the culture of violence (fat chance when that culture is so highly profitable!).

[1] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-...

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#254

Post by sudioStudio64 » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 12:47 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #246

fweespeech wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rhoads defended the procedure, calling the officers’ actions “on point.” It’s not standard to conduct investigations beforehand because that delays the apprehension of suspects, he told me. > I noted that the officers could have sought information from the apartment complex’s security guard that would have resolved the matter without violence. But he played down the importance of such information: “It doesn’t matte…

Personal safety is the #1 priority of any emergency worker. If you don't keep yourself safe, then that's one less person to be able to help out. Add to this that there isn't an endless stream of people both willing and able to do the job in the first place, and also that training takes a fair while, and it's clear that self-preservation is a requirement for emergency workers. By all means, question police methods. Bu…

I'm not being snide. I'm saying that they want to minimize the negative aspects of their arrangement with society while maximizing the positive aspects.

Positive aspect: Cops have a benefit of the doubt that other citizens don't have when it comes to the use of force.

Negative aspect: They stop someone that resists arrest.

If you are trying to maximize the positive things you get from the job and minimize the negative you will treat every person that resists arrest as if it were life threatening.

When you add up the benefits that actually accrue to the police (and not just from asking them... like other conservative organizations they generally are very sensitive to perceived losses of authority) you see that they get a middle class life, authority over the physical safety of people around them, and higher burden of proof required to convict them. They also maintain one of the only government sanctioned unions so they have greater economic democratic power as well. They are super-citizens and they have come to believe that the deference paid to them is in fact owed to them. They have convinced themselves that their lives are always in danger in every interaction so they are owed greater deference by society. Its my contention that the danger's they face are not immediately present in every interaction and that they have actually been involved in creating the policies that put them in the situations where danger is greatest.

Its time that they stop taking for granted the powers and position that society bestows. Its also time for us to decriminalize some of the behaviors that the police depend on to bolster their position politically.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#255

Post by taejo » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:02 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #167

tajen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean for us Europeans, who still have, for the moment, more lenient police? Should we expect that America uprises against their own police? Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? Becomes either less economically stable or more economically agressive? Should we expect that US' political influence requires us to step up our police, the same way France escalated an NSA-style law six months ago? It worries me that…

I am not a US citizen, a supporter of the militarization of the police, or their unchecked use of power, but your third (numbered) point: "[1] Being a foreigner, I'm not protected by your constitution and the officers haven't sworn to protect and serve me." is incorrect. All persons on US soil are protected by the US constitution, whether citizens or not. Your (confusingly) similarly enumerated point earlier "[1] and…

> All persons on US soil are protected by the US constitution, whether citizens or not.

That's my reading, too, but it's not clear that it's government's reading.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#256

Post by mcherm » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:06 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #201

estava wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exploiting the third world part of America is also good for business.

Nonsense. They are not exploited.

Of course they are exploited.

If I knew your philosophical leanings I could construct an example that would be quite common -- but for all I know you think it is not exploitation to offer jobs for minimum wage with no benefits that offer only 19 hrs a week of work (no benefits) but demand 24/7 availability.

So let me use a more extreme example. When individuals are suspected (NOT yet proven) of illegal immigration they are sent to a detention facility. There they are not allowed amenities like fresh socks or telephone calls unless they work for them at the rate of $0.13/hr. This is happening today to many thousands of people (http://www.npr.org/2015/07/23/425511981/at-low-pay-governmen...).

Surely THAT counts as exploitation.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#257

Post by dsr_ » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #229

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #106

I, for one, get tired of the constant refrain of hero worship while these guys say that there number one job is to get home safely. They are afforded terrible powers to intervene in, and disrupt, someone's life. That trade is made under the assumption that they do a dangerous job. A benefit is afforded to them due to the responsibility that they bear. Obviously, they want to have as much power with as little danger a…

If their "number one priority" is to be safe, they should pick a different line of work. "I was in fear for my life" has become a justification for just about anything they want to do but it usually factors out to "I got scared so I just started shooting". Its hard to find that heroic.

What's more dangerous than being a police officer?

Oh, right. Lots of things:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

including fishers, loggers, farmers, roofers, and taxi drivers.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#258

Post by taejo » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #135

Elrac wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My German wife says this is (to a large part) a direct consequence of the fact that the US has a much larger population of people with nothing left to lose. Middle class workers working off a mortgage in suburbia are a lot less likely to become violent killers than underprivileged folk who have precious few career options outside of drug dealing in gangs.

That's an incorrect conclusion. Check out the historical murder rate of Appalachia in the US. Extremely high gun ownership, extremely low murder rate. I grew up there, deep in poverty, everyone owned guns, and the murder rate was on par with the best of Europe per 100,000 people. The difference? Cultural. Where I grew up, people simply did not believe in killing each other, period. Desperation was widespread, yet the…

That's interesting, given the stereotyped belief that Appalachia is the epicentre of a certain type of murder culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia#Feuds

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#259

Post by angrybits » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:23 PM UTC

Intermernet wrote: post #223

angrybits wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have zero respect for someone that was there Serving isn't for everyone, and I don't expect you to understand it if you haven't. But either way your attitude is as discourteous as it is pretentious, and you have added zero value to the conversation by shooting your mouth off on the subject. America's fighting forces will continue to carry out their mission, day in and day out, just like they always have. I have a…

> America's fighting forces will continue to carry out their mission, day in and day out, just like they always have. What is the mission? And why is it taking an infinitely long time to carry out?

It changes over time, and ranges anywhere from the use of force to achieve an objective all the way to simply humanitarian. Sometimes a mix. (delivery of supplies + security) The world is not in a steady state, so as our needs change over time, so does the mission.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#260

Post by mcherm » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:27 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #131

tajen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean for us Europeans, who still have, for the moment, more lenient police? Should we expect that America uprises against their own police? Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? Becomes either less economically stable or more economically agressive? Should we expect that US' political influence requires us to step up our police, the same way France escalated an NSA-style law six months ago? It worries me that…

The next US response will be gradual de-escalation of its police aggressiveness. The beginning of the end of the war on drugs, body cameras, attention being cast on asset seizures and minimum mandatory sentencing - it has become obvious to most of the population that over the last 30 years the policing system has gotten out of control. You know it's understood to be bad when the president is openly discussing how muc…

Except that it is possible this will become politicized. If one party becomes identified as the party supporting prison and law enforcement reform then the other party will then by default have to be the party opposing that. Then when THEY get into office they will oppose reforms. I hope this politicization does not happen but I am worried it may.