In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me • Hacker News Board

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#31

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:07 PM UTC

gokhan wrote: post #7

> The culture that encourages police officers to engage their weapons before gathering information promotes the mind-set that nothing, including citizen safety, is more important than officers’ personal security. This seems like the thing police forces need to change in order to fix the situation.

The thing is, military forces are bound by international treaties to restrict violence against civilians. Police are not.

Normally domestic politics in a free country would regard the random deaths of civilians as a bad thing, but the US racial divide means that enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#32

Post by alextgordon » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:11 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #13

ghufran_syed wrote: post #9

I sometimes find ex-military folks analogies between their wartime service and situations in civilian life rather forced, but this analysis is exactly right. I used to ask myself why the Israeli Defence Forces would risk innocent palestinian civilian lives to kill the terrorists who hide among them by using drones or airstrikes instead of the kind of techniques they would no doubt use if the terrorists were surrounde…

> The simple answer is that the life of an Israeli civilian is considered (by the IDF) to be worth more than that of a palestinian civilian. It's important here to draw a philosophical distinction between the claim that the lives of some groups are more important than the lives of others, and the claim that a particular person or organization has a greater duty to some groups than others. It's perfectly consistent to…

It's a common but mistaken way of thinking. If the IDF instead resolved that its remit was to protect both Israelis and Palestinians from harm, then conflict would be reduced and more Israeli lives would be saved.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#33

Post by tajen » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:13 PM UTC

jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

What does it mean for us Europeans, who still have, for the moment, more lenient police? Should we expect that America uprises against their own police? Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? Becomes either less economically stable or more economically agressive? Should we expect that US' political influence requires us to step up our police, the same way France escalated an NSA-style law six months ago? It worries me that a friend country's police goes more totalitarian, but are there actual consequences on us?

It's an open question. For the last 6 years I've refused to set foot in US (and even declined free tickets to a very important tech conference in my field) because of your unpredictable trigger-friendly police [1] and your guantanamo-friendly interviews at border control [2]. I wonder it your unstability could reach me in Europe.

[1] Being a foreigner, I'm not protected by your constitution and the officers haven't sworn to protect and serve me.

[2] I do believe an intent to go to a conference could randomly be recategorized as seeking work, which is illegal, and using a false Facebook name could be recategorized as identity theft. I do believe it's therefore possible to be retained at your border for an undefined amount of time, with no record and no rights to a lawyer. I do believe I'd be upset in this situation and I could end up sentenced for life in your prisons.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#34

Post by ghufran_syed » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:14 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #13

ghufran_syed wrote: post #9

I sometimes find ex-military folks analogies between their wartime service and situations in civilian life rather forced, but this analysis is exactly right. I used to ask myself why the Israeli Defence Forces would risk innocent palestinian civilian lives to kill the terrorists who hide among them by using drones or airstrikes instead of the kind of techniques they would no doubt use if the terrorists were surrounde…

> The simple answer is that the life of an Israeli civilian is considered (by the IDF) to be worth more than that of a palestinian civilian. It's important here to draw a philosophical distinction between the claim that the lives of some groups are more important than the lives of others, and the claim that a particular person or organization has a greater duty to some groups than others. It's perfectly consistent to…

I think that's a reasonable analysis, but incomplete. If a nation state occupies territory that does not belong to them (for whatever, possibly well-founded reasons), and therefore controls, by force, the lives and freedoms of the inhabitants, then I would argue that along with the authority that force gives them, comes a 'duty of care' towards the civilians of the occupied territory, at least equal of that owed their own citizens.

[EDIT] ----- To quote Colin Powell, former US Secretary of State regarding the possible invasion of Iraq: 'You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people,' he told the president. 'You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems. You'll own it all.' Privately, Powell and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage called this the Pottery Barn rule: You break it, you own it.[1] ------------

I agree that a parent has a greater duty of care to protect their own children than someone else's children. However, to extend your analogy, if I have someone else's children staying at my house, then I am literally 'in loco parentis' ("in place of a parent") for those children. I would argue that I have a duty of care to those children and their parents that is AT LEAST equal to my duty of care towards my own children.

A better analogy might be that of a school. Maybe the kids don't want to be there, maybe their parents don't want them in that school either, but once the children are there with the teachers 'in loco parentis', surely it is unacceptable for teachers in that school to take actions that make it safer for the teachers by making it less safe for the children? For example, would it be ok for the teachers to carry tasers to protect themselves in case a child attempts to assault them?

[1] Woodward, Bob (2004). Plan of Attack. p. 150.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#35

Post by pasbesoin » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:17 PM UTC

There was no report of anyone being harmed -- of any violence occurring. The police escalated the situation to a violent confrontation.

Fail.

P.S. If they had raised a sudden firefight, where might some of the resulting rounds traveled and impacted, particularly in what might be a fairly population-dense apartment building(s) setting?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#36

Post by an_ko » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:17 PM UTC

rogeryu wrote: post #30

This reminds me of Sandra Bland who was put into jail for three days because of improperly signaling a lane change. Police in the US is totally out of control it seems.

It's mentioned in the article; even linked from the words "threaten to Taser a woman": http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/21...

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#37

Post by ghufran_syed » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:22 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #11

This discussion of strategies for reducing the use of force by police is more constructive and sensible than most on this issue: http://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/law-enforcements-warrior...

I just took a quick look, but it looks like a great article, might be worth doing a HN submission?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#38

Post by an_ko » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:22 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #31

gokhan wrote: post #7

> The culture that encourages police officers to engage their weapons before gathering information promotes the mind-set that nothing, including citizen safety, is more important than officers’ personal security. This seems like the thing police forces need to change in order to fix the situation.

The thing is, military forces are bound by international treaties to restrict violence against civilians. Police are not. Normally domestic politics in a free country would regard the random deaths of civilians as a bad thing, but the US racial divide means that enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one

Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#39

Post by mc32 » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:23 PM UTC

jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

For sure our police more often than necessary become very aggro. It may have to do with knowing anyone could own and possess either legal or illegal firearms.

We need to reconcile gun ownership with the violence it can allow and our desire for less aggro policing.

That said police most definitely need to be trained to deescallate rather than automatically double down.

We need to seriously emphasize de-escalation.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#40

Post by letitgo12345 » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 8:26 PM UTC

rogeryu wrote: post #30

This reminds me of Sandra Bland who was put into jail for three days because of improperly signaling a lane change. Police in the US is totally out of control it seems.

This may be downvoted but she was stopped for not signaling but arrested (according to police statements anyway) for assaulting.

This may or not be true but we should reserve judgement I feel while the investigation is proceeding.