In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me • Hacker News Board

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#161

Post by yesbabyyes » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:11 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #107

pjc50 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough that whenever it happens, there are plenty of people keen to manufacture justifications for it being the dead person's fault. If hundreds of Americans were being shot every year by terrorists, there would be an outcry and a demand to invade somewhere. If hundreds of Americans were being killed every year by a faulty product or staff negligence, there would be legal outcry and improved procedures and quality co…

In the US, most homicide victims are killed by another person of their own race, not by the police. This is true for whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. for the simple fact that races tend to segregate into neighborhoods. For all I know it's also true for non-racial demographics such as homosexuals. Simply put, if you're killed, it's most likely by someone you are related to if not by family then by proximity. This doesn…

but police involved shootings by contrast are way down.

Not sure if you are referring to Chicago here, but (reported) police _killings_ in the US are way up during the 2000s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#162

Post by ams6110 » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:16 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #149

ams6110 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between the way you phrase it and the objective fact that most people who are killed by police are in fact people with lengthy and often violent criminal histories. Not all, of course. But most.

Do you have a citation for that? Not that I dispute it, but I don't know it to be true either.

Who The Police Shoot
A vast majority of the people shot by the police in 2011 were men between the ages 25 and 40 who had histories of crime. Overall, people shot by the police were much older than the typical first-time arrestee. A significant number of the people wounded and killed by the authorities were over fifty, some in their eighties. In 2011, the police shot two 15-year-olds, and a girl who was 16.
The police shot, in 2011, about 50 women, most of whom were armed with knives and had histories of emotional distress. Overall, about a quarter of those shot were either mentally ill and/or suicidal. Many of these were "suicide-by-cop" cases.
Most police shooting victims were armed with handguns. The next most common weapon involved vehicles (used as weapons), followed by knives (and other sharp objects), shotguns, and rifles. Very few of these people carried assault weapons, and a small percentage were unarmed. About 50 subjects were armed with BB-guns, pellet guns or replica firearms.
The situations that brought police shooters and their targets together included domestic and other disturbances; crimes in progress such as robbery, assault and carjacking; the execution of arrest warrants; drug raids; gang activities; routine traffic stops; car chases; and standoff and hostage events.

Women make up about 15 percent of the nation's uniformed police services. During 2011, about 25 female police officers wounded or killed civilians. None of these officers had shot anyone in the past. While the vast majority of police officers never fire their guns in the line of duty, 15 officers who did shoot someone in 2011, had shot at least one person before. (This figure is probably low because police departments don't like to report such statistics.) Most police shootings involved members of police departments followed by sheriff's deputies, the state police, and federal officers. These shootings took place in big cities, suburban areas, towns, and in rural areas. Big city shootings comprised about half of these violent confrontations in 2011.

http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012/01/police-involv...

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#163

Post by ams6110 » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:21 AM UTC

yesbabyyes wrote: post #161

ams6110 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, most homicide victims are killed by another person of their own race, not by the police. This is true for whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. for the simple fact that races tend to segregate into neighborhoods. For all I know it's also true for non-racial demographics such as homosexuals. Simply put, if you're killed, it's most likely by someone you are related to if not by family then by proximity. This doesn…

but police involved shootings by contrast are way down. Not sure if you are referring to Chicago here, but (reported) police _killings_ in the US are way up during the 2000s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

Yes I was referring to Chicago (based on the Chicago Trib story I referenced).

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#164

Post by javert » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:22 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #68

jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

When I did my compulsory military duty in Germany I ended up being military police. We had a lot of interactions with American MPs due to the US military being stationed there. We always joked about how they behaved like movie action heroes, always ready to use force. We were trained to avoid confrontation at almost any price. When in doubt, retreat. I guess it's a different view on law "enforcement".

US is a third world country with a first-world layer on top. A more concrete difference is that there are a lot of people in the US with guns and bad attitudes. (A lot of Americans don't know it because the layers don't mix much.)

So, US cops are right to have a different basic stance than German cops.

That is not to defend the actions described in the news article. And there certainly is a big problem with militarization of cops in the US.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#165

Post by evan_ » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:32 AM UTC

powertower wrote: post #158

evan_ wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but you're going to need to explain why having watermelon soda is a shoot-on-sight offense, and why it matters that it's soda and not ice tea.

> , and why it matters that it's soda and not ice tea. It matters that it was a manufactured lie. The "ice tea and skittles" was also mentioned every time the name Trayvon Martin was mentioned. Every. Single. Time. So it must have also had a great importance to everything and everyone. And the point was to show how these stories are manufactured by removing facts, and replacing them with the narrative... A young 12 y…

I'm not familiar with the specific product pictured, so maybe it is a soda, but if you show a can with the Arizona Ice Tea trade dress to 100 people, 99 of them will describe it as "ice tea".

There's no grand conspiracy to make the world believe that it was ice tea and not soda, you have invented this. (I assume you really are passionately concerned with the difference between soda and tea and not just trying to talk about a black kid liking fruit soda and watermelon as a way to engage racist stereotypes to dehumanize him.)

Whether he was going to drink it or mix it with codeine is immaterial to the events that led to his death so why even bring it up?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#166

Post by juliangregorian » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

Evolved wrote: post #151

ghufran_syed wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One example where the U.S. seems to be getting it right is high-speed chases" If true, that may be because they are usually video recorded by news channels. If a civilian is injured during the chase, there's lots of dramatic footage for the prosecution lawyer to show the jury, before asking the officers in charge to answer under oath why they made the decisions they made. Sounds like pretty strong evidence in favor…

"One example where the U.S. seems to be getting it right is high-speed chases" If true, that may be because they are usually video recorded by news channels. If a civilian is injured during the chase, there's lots of dramatic footage for the prosecution lawyer to show the jury, before asking the officers in charge to answer under oath why they made the decisions they made. Sounds like pretty strong evidence in favor…

Why would the cop's life be ruined? There are already way too many cases where police body cameras "mysteriously malfunction", often on multiple officers at once. There need to be repercussions for such behavior. This is just an extension of innocent until proven guilty. If cops want to make arrests, they should make sure their camera is working. They would never go out without a functioning gun, radio, or car.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#167

Post by nickff » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

tajen wrote: post #33

jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

What does it mean for us Europeans, who still have, for the moment, more lenient police? Should we expect that America uprises against their own police? Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? Becomes either less economically stable or more economically agressive? Should we expect that US' political influence requires us to step up our police, the same way France escalated an NSA-style law six months ago? It worries me that…

I am not a US citizen, a supporter of the militarization of the police, or their unchecked use of power, but your third (numbered) point: "[1] Being a foreigner, I'm not protected by your constitution and the officers haven't sworn to protect and serve me." is incorrect. All persons on US soil are protected by the US constitution, whether citizens or not.

Your (confusingly) similarly enumerated point earlier "[1] and your guantanamo-friendly interviews at border control" is also flawed, as there is no possible way (of which I am aware) for US Customs and Immigration to send you to Guantanamo Bay without the assent of the country you are leaving. US C&I can turn you back, or temporarily detain you, and have a great deal of latitude with respect to questioning and searches, but you are always protected by the US constitution and possibly the laws of the country you are attempting to leave depending on where you are being questioned. The reason that people were allowed to be transported to Guantanamo Bay is that they were captured as unaffiliated combatants (who are allotted few rights in the Geneva Convention,) within the borders of a country whose sovereign granted the USA custody, and allowed deportation for detention without conditions.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#168

Post by toolsadmin » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

Time to invest in Taser Corporation. With policing like this, another Fergusson is right around the corner. Not that people in Fergusson were angels, but still, they got something right - fighting against state fashism.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#169

Post by powertower » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

evan_ wrote: post #165

powertower wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> , and why it matters that it's soda and not ice tea. It matters that it was a manufactured lie. The "ice tea and skittles" was also mentioned every time the name Trayvon Martin was mentioned. Every. Single. Time. So it must have also had a great importance to everything and everyone. And the point was to show how these stories are manufactured by removing facts, and replacing them with the narrative... A young 12 y…

I'm not familiar with the specific product pictured, so maybe it is a soda, but if you show a can with the Arizona Ice Tea trade dress to 100 people, 99 of them will describe it as "ice tea". There's no grand conspiracy to make the world believe that it was ice tea and not soda, you have invented this. (I assume you really are passionately concerned with the difference between soda and tea and not just trying to talk…

edit: you are right, it is coming off looney. Ice tea, soda, watermelon flavored fruit punch or juice, ... the point has been made - a stereotypical-flavor juice drink is converted unanimously to "ice tea" by the media (by 10 out of 10 outlets) for the narrative's sake.

For the other 95% of the story, start with the 2nd link above, to see just how ridiculous Zimmerman's character was built-up.

Then check Trayvon's twitter screenshot for how he conversed and what drugs he liked (lean). Check the pictures found on his phone of him holding a gun and talking about selling it. Him being expelled from school. Burglary charges. See the conversations he had about being in some type of a fight club and making people bleed, etc...

Which was all mostly left out of the story, because it did not support the narrative - http://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/hoodies-8...

Or how about the recording that was played for weeks non stop on CNN -

> Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

Which actually turned out to be -

> Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

> Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?

> Zimmerman: He looks black.

The media did a number on that story. It wasn't a conspiracy, it was political spin. Which is what the media in the US does. They do not report facts anymore.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#170

Post by toolsadmin » Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

angrybits wrote: post #160

darklajid wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I .. disagree. Disclaimer: Not my native language, I might miss nuances and misinterpret things - and I certainly come from a different belief system, a different culture. For me though, this article raised important questions - but those were nearly impossibly hard to read due to the constant 'I served in Iraq' analogies. I flagged the submission for that. I don't believe that Iraq was a 'Good Idea™' and I have zero…

> I have zero respect for someone that was there Serving isn't for everyone, and I don't expect you to understand it if you haven't. But either way your attitude is as discourteous as it is pretentious, and you have added zero value to the conversation by shooting your mouth off on the subject. America's fighting forces will continue to carry out their mission, day in and day out, just like they always have. I have a…

Well you sure didn't slober when you sucked your heroes off. Not your first time I'm guessing? To people in Iraq it was an occupational force of thugs. Hence, I wonder if vast majority of the world thought the same way. Bush didn't even get UN mandate to be there.