In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me • Hacker News Board

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#91

Post by brownbat » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #68

jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

When I did my compulsory military duty in Germany I ended up being military police. We had a lot of interactions with American MPs due to the US military being stationed there. We always joked about how they behaved like movie action heroes, always ready to use force. We were trained to avoid confrontation at almost any price. When in doubt, retreat. I guess it's a different view on law "enforcement".

Huh, why don't criminals in Germany exploit this, always threaten confrontation and have their run of the city?

EDIT: Granted there's a big difference between trying to deescalate when possible and raiding a sleeping guy's apartment on bad info.

EDIT 2: This was an honest question and I felt like I got good answers despite the downvoting. Big thanks to everyone who took it at face value or applied the principle of charity, rather than just assuming I'm some kind of disruptive monster. http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#92

Post by mattstreet » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #84

I once used to believe that the problem in the US is that guns are so widely available, but today I'm not so sure about that anymore, because there are many very safe countries that rank high in number of guns per capita like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Canada and Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_c... In Switzerland every male has a military type machine gun and two magazi…

The rules about every male having a weapon and ammo went away in 2007 or so. There is a lot of regulation there about who can have a weapon or buy ammunition.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#93

Post by chucksmash » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:03 PM UTC

justizin wrote: post #25

Retra wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the article said it was a SWAT team conducting the raid. I mean, I could see some off-hand justification by saying that they get to practice for real raids in an unfamiliar situation... but raids are prone to inciting over-reactions and media attention, which clearly doesn't provide long term value.

> .. which clearly doesn't provide long term value. The police are not interested in long term value. They want action, they want to play with their toys. It is simply not more complex than that.

That's a mighty broad brush you are painting with there.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#94

Post by joesmo » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:04 PM UTC

"I understood the risks of war when I enlisted as an infantryman. Police officers should understand the risks in their jobs when they enroll in the academy, as well. That means knowing that personal safety can’t always come first. That is why it’s service. That’s why it’s sacrifice."

I think that sums it up well. Many police officers do indeed act like they don't understand the risks or even purpose of their own jobs. Policing has become an end in and of itself. It's no longer about protecting and serving but about policing and arresting and jailing. It doesn't matter if there is no crime, people will be arrested. It doesn't matter if there is serious crime, low-level offenders will be the primary target. And of course, nothing is more important than officer safety. These officers are cowards who should be ashamed of themselves. They don't have an altruistic bone in their body and probably wouldn't lift a finger to save a baby out of a burning building. It is the citizens' lives that matter, that the police are sworn to protect. It is the citizens they serve. But that indeed has been lost.

Given all this, is it any wonder that much of the population no longer trusts police, many from negative personal experiences? The author is right. Until there is a huge shift in the way police treat citizens, this problem of trust will get worse. For many, it is a problem of hate, and in many cases, rightly so.

Yet the police and many other people insist that the change has to come from citizens. If only we give up our guns. If only we give up our freedoms. These things just make the problem worse by blaming the victims and forcing the citizens to give up even more for the well being of the police.

There is no movement from the pro police camp, and it's been their turn for decades now. Until there is, hate and animosity from the community will continue to grow.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#95

Post by powertower » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:04 PM UTC

tajen wrote: post #33

jxm262 wrote: post #12

This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.

What does it mean for us Europeans, who still have, for the moment, more lenient police? Should we expect that America uprises against their own police? Draw a Fergusson every 3 months? Becomes either less economically stable or more economically agressive? Should we expect that US' political influence requires us to step up our police, the same way France escalated an NSA-style law six months ago? It worries me that…

> Draw a Fergusson every 3 months?

The majority of what you have been told by your media are "narrative" stories that are removed of all actual facts and details (to fit the narrative). Its pure politics.

For example, in the Ferguson case, you where told that the police officer (Darren Wilson) saw Michael Brown, and for whatever reason, just murdered him on the spot, by shooting him through the back of his head - all while Michael Brown was doing nothing wrong, and holding his hands up.

Except none of that is true. Here is the basic outline of what happened instead - http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ferguson-shooting-13-facts/...

Or here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

And that's still leaving allot out.

In the case of Trayvon Martin, the spin was even worse.

This is a racist "white" man - http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/02/06/zimmerman...

And a watermelon soda is an ice tea - http://www.examiner.com/article/trayvon-s-skittles-arizona-t...

I'm assuming the later was "modified" in the produced story by all the left-leaning news outlets because it was too stereotypical / and the narrative must be protected. If you don't believe it, check the crime seen photos and the court records - I did.

And that's about 5% of the falsehood story. I could go on and on.

> Should we expect that America uprises against their own police?

Cops kill a reported 500 or so people every year. Maybe twice that much in real numbers.

The majority of those people are violent criminals - some of which are firing at cops, using knifes to stab cops, garbing at cops' guns, using vehicles to run cops over, etc.

Why would anyone that is not delusional with the political media spin revolt against cops?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#96

Post by _delirium » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #84

I once used to believe that the problem in the US is that guns are so widely available, but today I'm not so sure about that anymore, because there are many very safe countries that rank high in number of guns per capita like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Canada and Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_c... In Switzerland every male has a military type machine gun and two magazi…

I'm not sure city size is specifically the difference. The U.S. does have large cities, but the citizen-violence and police-violence problems aren't limited to those. For example, none of these states have any cities as big as Vienna (2.5 million), yet they are among the more dangerous states: Mississippi, New Mexico, South Carolina, Alabama, Indiana.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#97

Post by darklajid » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:06 PM UTC

DasIch wrote: post #80

sschueller wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland almost every adult male has a fully automatic military riffle at home. Yet Police will not barge in shooting, de-escalation is key.

In Switzerland almost every adult male also doesn't have any ammunition for his rifle at home. So realistically the worst police officers can expect is to be being hit over the head with that rifle.

Disclaimer: I'm from the neighboring country to the north. I know nothing.

I _thought_ that you're supposed to have some ammunition at home though? 'Taschenmunition' or something? Like, say, 20 rounds?

Let's ignore the standards for storing those, but my impression is that

a) ~a lot~ of people in CH have rifles _with_ ammo

b) ~a good number~ of kills at home in CH happen using said rifle ("Cheating wife? Thank the military for the rifle right here" or - on a different end of that scale - "Life is unbearable, but the state provided me with a convenient way to move on").

Can you set me straight?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#98

Post by DominikR » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:07 PM UTC

mattstreet wrote: post #92

DominikR wrote: post #84

I once used to believe that the problem in the US is that guns are so widely available, but today I'm not so sure about that anymore, because there are many very safe countries that rank high in number of guns per capita like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Canada and Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_c... In Switzerland every male has a military type machine gun and two magazi…

The rules about every male having a weapon and ammo went away in 2007 or so. There is a lot of regulation there about who can have a weapon or buy ammunition.

Well, Switzerland still ranks very high in terms of gun ownership. (4th place in the world)

My point is that the mere availability of guns can't be the only reason.

This is most likely a very complex problem with many different issues that have to be tackled. Better police training, preventing ghettos, hopeless economic situation for people of certain race, racism - these are all issues that will have to be tackled to get this under control.

Just taking away the guns wont solve the problem I fear.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#99

Post by rory096 » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:10 PM UTC

Elrac wrote: post #65

maxerickson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reaction is extreme. Working professionals from rich countries that come to the US on short term Visas are not subjected to intense scrutiny. No one is prosecuted for the name on their Facebook account.

You need to be a bit more careful with sweeping generalizations like "no one." Here are two cases just off the top of my head that almost perfectly contradict what you wrote. http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/04/23/Feldmar/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/think-before-you-tweet-why-two-...

While those incidents are obviously outrageous, refusal at the border isn't the same as prosecution and certainly nobody was sentenced to life imprisonment.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#100

Post by darklajid » Sat, Jul 25, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

ghufran_syed wrote: post #9

I sometimes find ex-military folks analogies between their wartime service and situations in civilian life rather forced, but this analysis is exactly right. I used to ask myself why the Israeli Defence Forces would risk innocent palestinian civilian lives to kill the terrorists who hide among them by using drones or airstrikes instead of the kind of techniques they would no doubt use if the terrorists were surrounde…

I .. disagree.

Disclaimer: Not my native language, I might miss nuances and misinterpret things - and I certainly come from a different belief system, a different culture.

For me though, this article raised important questions - but those were nearly impossibly hard to read due to the constant 'I served in Iraq' analogies. I flagged the submission for that.

I don't believe that Iraq was a 'Good Idea™' and I have zero respect for someone that was there. I did like the parts about his unit being somewhat less disconnected from the local population, but .. if you start at -100 you can't get too high, really.

For me, these analogies were, while probably important for the author, utterly distracting, annoying and disgusting. If you want to talk about the police in the USA, do that. The time served in Iraq is not relevant and - at least for this person right here - doesn't lend you credibility or sympathy either.

For me, those things don't belong together. It feels like a cheap "I'm a veteran, here's what I say" thing (and the notion of "veterans" is already quiiiiite hard to get over here).