Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 301 posts

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#101

Post by vutekst »

DasIch wrote: post #80
sschueller wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland almost every adult male has a fully automatic military riffle at home. Yet Police will not barge in shooting, de-escalation is key.

In Switzerland almost every adult male also doesn't have any ammunition for his rifle at home. So realistically the worst police officers can expect is to be being hit over the head with that rifle.

My understanding is that most militia members cannot keep ammunition in their homes, but private citizens can have ammo as they please.

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-...

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#102

Post by maxxxxx »

brownbat wrote: post #91
maxxxxx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I did my compulsory military duty in Germany I ended up being military police. We had a lot of interactions with American MPs due to the US military being stationed there. We always joked about how they behaved like movie action heroes, always ready to use force. We were trained to avoid confrontation at almost any price. When in doubt, retreat. I guess it's a different view on law "enforcement".

Huh, why don't criminals in Germany exploit this, always threaten confrontation and have their run of the city? EDIT: Granted there's a big difference between trying to deescalate when possible and raiding a sleeping guy's apartment on bad info. EDIT 2: This was an honest question and I felt like I got good answers despite the downvoting. Big thanks to everyone who took it at face value or applied the principle of ch…

Because the German cops are not push overs either. If somebody will attack them they will fight back. But by trying to deescalate first you set the tone for the interaction.

Most of the recently published police violence in the US seems to come from really trivial situations, not from criminals. I watched the Sandra Bland video. The cop stops her for a trivial traffic violation (I often forget my turns signals too and I see a lot of people doing that too). She responds in an aggravated way. Instead of trying to defuse the situation he makes it worse by telling her to put out the cigarette. Why would you do that? This sounds like a pure ego-trip where the cop wants to assert his total dominance. He could have given her a ticket and just left.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#103

Post by analog31 »

suprgeek wrote: post #54

In the US the Police are a "Guns & Badges" Culture thru & thru. Only the truly "macho" are regarded with respect. There is no concept of de-escalation. The bigger problem is that the policies & incentives are built to reinforce this. They get promotions/assets based on forfeiture laws, weapons based on Pentagon Surplus & publicity based on Shootouts. No one ever got promoted for not shooting a (potentially innocent)…

I wonder if this influences the civilian population too, by promoting the idea that the only way for citizens to protect themselves is by being prepared to shoot their way out of any situation.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#105

Post by acdha »

brownbat wrote: post #91
maxxxxx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I did my compulsory military duty in Germany I ended up being military police. We had a lot of interactions with American MPs due to the US military being stationed there. We always joked about how they behaved like movie action heroes, always ready to use force. We were trained to avoid confrontation at almost any price. When in doubt, retreat. I guess it's a different view on law "enforcement".

Huh, why don't criminals in Germany exploit this, always threaten confrontation and have their run of the city? EDIT: Granted there's a big difference between trying to deescalate when possible and raiding a sleeping guy's apartment on bad info. EDIT 2: This was an honest question and I felt like I got good answers despite the downvoting. Big thanks to everyone who took it at face value or applied the principle of ch…

Remember that the police have far more resources available. Once someone demonstrates that they're actually a threat, the police still have the option of applying superior force but they have far more options for controlling when and where that happens and ensuring that innocent bystanders aren't needlessly exposed.

One example where the U.S. seems to be getting it right is high-speed chases, which seem to be becoming less common because it's not worth the safety risks in an urban environment and modern tech + resources make it unlikely that anyone can actually escape for that long. Sure, that'd make for a crappy movie but it's safer for everyone involved.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#106

Post by sudioStudio64 »

I, for one, get tired of the constant refrain of hero worship while these guys say that there number one job is to get home safely.

They are afforded terrible powers to intervene in, and disrupt, someone's life. That trade is made under the assumption that they do a dangerous job.

A benefit is afforded to them due to the responsibility that they bear.

Obviously, they want to have as much power with as little danger as possible. They want to maximize the benefit the receive (largely being above the law and a middle class existence) and minimize the repercussions of what they owe for it (possibly being in danger).

Its the same in other areas of American life where elites have abdicated their responsibilities but have become accustomed to the benefits afforded them to the point that they think it's owed to them. That has to change.

EDIT: for clarification and spelling.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#107

Post by ams6110 »

pjc50 wrote: post #57
an_ko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

Enough that whenever it happens, there are plenty of people keen to manufacture justifications for it being the dead person's fault. If hundreds of Americans were being shot every year by terrorists, there would be an outcry and a demand to invade somewhere. If hundreds of Americans were being killed every year by a faulty product or staff negligence, there would be legal outcry and improved procedures and quality co…

In the US, most homicide victims are killed by another person of their own race, not by the police. This is true for whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. for the simple fact that races tend to segregate into neighborhoods. For all I know it's also true for non-racial demographics such as homosexuals. Simply put, if you're killed, it's most likely by someone you are related to if not by family then by proximity. This doesn't get a lot of media attention or create a lot of outrage, even though the numbers are much, much higher than police involved killings.

Just to take one example: Hundreds of people kill each other every year in cities like Chicago. Thousands more sustain non-fatal injuries. Sometimes dozens are killed in a single weekend. Homicides and shootings are way up, but police involved shootings by contrast are way down. This does get some local media attention but there is comparatively little national media or public outrage over this compared to relative few killed in police involved shootings.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-superin...

We have a much bigger problem with citizens killing each other than with police killing citizens. That's not to say that police are perfect, or not often overzealous, or that they shouldn't be held to a higher standard. But the reality is not nearly what is being portrayed by many media and political organizations.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#108

Post by Elrac »

rory096 wrote: post #99
Elrac wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to be a bit more careful with sweeping generalizations like "no one." Here are two cases just off the top of my head that almost perfectly contradict what you wrote. http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/04/23/Feldmar/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/think-before-you-tweet-why-two-...

While those incidents are obviously outrageous, refusal at the border isn't the same as prosecution and certainly nobody was sentenced to life imprisonment.

I grant part of that. But now _you_ have to tell me: How do you claim to know that no one was arrested and suffered life imprisonment? The point you seem to be missing is that you have no way of knowing!

This is the "wonderful" thing about the Patriot Act: Even as an American citizen, you could be disappeared and shipped to a foreign country for torturing... and there's a good chance no one would find out, for years, maybe forever. I don't think you have an idea of how significant this is. America does not operate under the rule of law.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#109

Post by marincounty »

Mithaldu wrote: post #60
vowelless wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. I think that the likelihood of civilians being armed in the US is a lot higher than in Germany, so I can imagine why American cops are a little more paranoid. I've seen cops put a hand on their gun as they approach suspects, which I think is part of the training here. I…

No direct comparison, but, police officers killed in germany: http://www.corsipo.de/ (probably incomplete, but In the usa: http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/US-Law-Enfo... Extrapolating that into numbers: DEU: Meanwhile the number of police kills are roughly: DEU: ~1 person killed by police per 10 mio citizens :::: USA: ~12.5 persons killed by police per 10 mio citizens The ratios are not all that far…

In terms of statistics being a cop is pretty safe? So many other occupations will lead to an early death?

Page 4, and 5 on:

Fhttp://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I've always felt if police officers were given better training, and maybe required a bit more than a high school diploma, say an AA in psychology; we wouldn't have these posts? By better training, I mean less paramilitary emphasis?

I'll admit, I'm tired of the endless pullovers--for no reason other than driving an old car, or out past 10:30 p.m.

I'm tired of the Revenue Collection(that's not their fault! We need to tie income to violations in the United States, or lower fees altogether?) A rich man get a ticket--he tell the wife at dinner. A poor man gets a ticket; it just might be the last straw?

I'm just tired of being scared when they are around!

I don't think things are going to change for a long time. All I rely on is dash cams at present. No need for spending more than 20 bucks at Amazon? Those cheap ones work, and last a long time. Buy two--in case one breaks? I had on going over a year now. I haven't been pulled over since? Maybe I don't do out like I used to, or they see that little screen flip down?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#110

Post by ams6110 »

DanBC wrote: post #52
an_ko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enough white people regard black people being shot by the police as a positive outcome rather than a negative one Could you elaborate? "Enough" for what?

"Enough" in that you have people on HN saying pretty much that most of the black people who get shot and killed by police deserved it and that black people are stupid violent criminals so it's no wonder they get killed so often, and that if only they were docile and compliant in the face of police harassment they wouldn't get shot so much. It's fucking weird seeing that stuff on HN, and it's scary to think how those…

There's a difference between the way you phrase it and the objective fact that most people who are killed by police are in fact people with lengthy and often violent criminal histories. Not all, of course. But most.
Post reply on HN